Priest question

[ZenDragon]

If this has been asked before i apologize.

At what point is it worth using an uncomfortable weapon with a priest?

It seems like I keep finding artifact weapons that are uncomfotable for priests to use.

[Derakon]

When the benefits outweigh the penalties, of course.

The main thing is the spell failure rate, so as long as your important spells are still at 0% there's no big problem with going with a pointy weapon.

[SSK]

When the benefits outweigh the penalties, of course.

The main thing is the spell failure rate, so as long as your important spells are still at 0% there's no big problem with going with a pointy weapon.

Looks like the tip-top artifact weapons are all either blunt or blessed; except Eowyn and Doomcaller--I'd probably go ahead and use those regardless (maybe not Doomcaller--I don't love aggravating unless I have more than 1 top-drawer aggravator--like I don't think I could turn down Umbar, Haradrim, and say Deathwreaker).

[Derakon]

Myshkin put forth in passing that the pointy penalty would presently be kaput.

(The next nightly will let priests use any old weapon)

[Timo Pietilä]

Looks like the tip-top artifact weapons are all either blunt or blessed; except Eowyn and Doomcaller--I'd probably go ahead and use those regardless (maybe not Doomcaller--I don't love aggravating unless I have more than 1 top-drawer aggravator--like I don't think I could turn down Umbar, Haradrim, and say Deathwreaker).

Ringil didn't used to be blessed until pretty recently. That is JLE addition to that weapon. I think there are more than just that, but that is the best one that got it.

[Timo Pietilä]

Myshkin put forth in passing that the pointy penalty would presently be kaput.

(The next nightly will let priests use any old weapon)

Then I guess mages get rid of gauntlet penalty as well? Pointy penalty is quite bad penalty, much worse than mage gauntlet penalty. It becomes irrelevant only at very high clvls unlike mage gauntlet penalty which becomes irrelevant as soon as you have enough mana to cast necessary spells few times (which is some point before stat-gain).

I would rather make that pointy penalty worse, not weaker. Make weapons that have just blessed flag and nothing else that are sold in temple and blunt or not that is the only weapon type priest could use without penalty. Then *slay evil*, Blessed and HA are only egos without penalty.

[EpicMan]

Do priests really need that penalty removed? It's not like they weren't already one of the most powerful classes in the game. The pointy-weapon penalty was a bit of flavor I enjoyed and helped separate them from the paladin.

[Derakon]

I'd rather see priests and paladins get the glove penalty too, personally. The pointy penalty was always an oddball, and it also makes randart balance screwy since the value of the blessed flag depends solely on what class you're playing (making it more or less impossible to give the flag a power rating).

Also, the concept of the pointy penalty is an obvious D&D holdover that never made thematic sense. If you beat someone up with a mace, they'll be bloody. No better than using a sword.

[Starhawk]

Yes, but the glove penalty is also an obvious holdover from D&D, where priests and paladins can cast in heavy armor, and mages cannot. It models that without limiting a mage's full-body armor choices.

[bulian]

I personally don't have a strong opinion on the topic, but removing the so-called "pointy penalty" goes against a recent earlier philosophy of making classes more diverse by removing abilities.

Just to add another proposal to flesh everything out - why not remove the glove penalty on mages etc. as well? Almost all standart gloves have FA. I seem to recall reading somewhere on here that randart gloves have a high probably of having FA. So really the penalty only limits mages from wearing a few ego items in the early to mid game - gloves of power for a few points in strength, for example.

[Derakon]

The glove penalty at least makes some thematic sense if you assume that spellcasting requires fine finger motion. The priest pointy penalty made zero thematic sense in D&D and makes zero thematic sense in Angband. You could however make a reasonable argument that prayers require fine motion just as spells do, thereby justifying the glove penalty for all casters.

EDIT: Bulian: if you can think of a good penalty for priests/paladins that makes thematic sense, feel free to suggest one.

[bulian]

Now that's what I call rapid feedback! Identical time stamps!

Add the glove penalty to all classes, remove it from all classes, or leave it the same, I think the glove penalty has a marginal impact on gameplay. Its unlikely I'll come up with an alternate penalty, though thematics aside, I do think the "pointy penalty" was a nice differentiating factor for priests.

[Timo Pietilä]

Now that's what I call rapid feedback! Identical time stamps!

Add the glove penalty to all classes, remove it from all classes, or leave it the same, I think the glove penalty has a marginal impact on gameplay. Its unlikely I'll come up with an alternate penalty, though thematics aside, I do think the "pointy penalty" was a nice differentiating factor for priests.

That factor is important one. Priest pointy penalty is much worse than mage gauntlet penalty and "thematic reasons" is IMO not enough to get rid of it. You need to have identical penalty ready before removing that one, because without it priest becomes überpaladin.

[Antoine]

That factor is important one. Priest pointy penalty is much worse than mage gauntlet penalty and "thematic reasons" is IMO not enough to get rid of it. You need to have identical penalty ready before removing that one, because without it priest becomes überpaladin.

Agree. We don't need to make the game easier at this point do we?

A.

[ekolis]

Let's combine a few ideas that have been floating around, and I'll throw my own into the mix!

Remove the priest's pointy penalty, but instead give priests an overall melee penalty. However, if a priest wields a blessed weapon, he gets a large bonus to his melee ability, more than enough to negate his intrinsic melee penalty. Perhaps tie this bonus in to Charisma, so as to make Charisma useful again? Or is that going a bit too far? Maybe priests could get a bonus for fighting barehanded, too?

So this way, priests have to rely more on spells, unless they find a blessed weapon, while paladins can use any weapon competently, but have less spellcasting ability!

I suppose one drawback of this system is it relies too much on the luck of priests finding a blessed weapon, though... I suppose that could be offset by adding a scroll of bless weapon, or maybe a spell... priests do have the Bless spell early on which temporarily increases their combat abilities; maybe later they could get a Bless Weapon spell which blesses a single weapon either permanently or for a long duration?