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I'm arguing that with my tactics, what you are proposing is at best a minor benefit, to weigh against the cost of code changes, testing and rebalancing a whole class. But I'm sure a fork of the main code would get some playtesting if you did that.
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WASHINGTON MEDICAL MARIJUANA DISPENSARIESLast edited by Taha; August 14, 2011, 15:02.Comment
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Sorry, didn't mean to hammer the tactics button so hard. I don't in principle object to the concept of spell scrolls; I just don't think that the problem they're solving is as big as you make it out to be either.
Finding a new spellbook for a mage is roughly equivalent to a warrior or hybrid class finding a nice new weapon. I can't count the number of times that my melee characters have been scraping along when suddenly they find a new toy that literally doubles their offense, and suddenly business is booming again. A similar effect occurs with Raal's, and to a lesser extent Kelek's. We could smooth out the power curve on weapons by e.g. replacing the disparate egos with Diablo-style gems that you socket onto a base item to add abilities to it, but nobody feels it's a problem that needs fixing. And besides, finding that new powerful weapon is fun!
All this talk about tactics is basically my way of saying "I don't think the sudden-power-differential aspect of book finding is a problem that needs fixing, for these reasons."Comment
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I had a few tissues, took my g/f to lunch, and had a good cry... I'm over it.
I'm not saying there is a problem with the current system other than the situation is AAA, when changing to a spell-scroll system could result in BBB. I also put forth the idea that instead of always being able to learn all the spells in one's class, the V. game could incorporate a greater number of spells---some of which the player would be able to find / use, but not necessarily all of them. The player would need to make a choice whether to expend a Study session to learn a spell or not.
How many Priest players, for example, are moaning and begrudging the fact there are 3 spells which are nothing but repeats of the same thing: Bless, Holy Chant, Holy Prayer?? What if you could choose (I know, this is purely incongruous with the current pot-luck style of gaining priest spells) not to learn 2 of the 3 redundant spells in favor of expending Study energy elsewhere? (And, yes, with a spell-scroll system, one could theoretically choose NOT to put prayers in one's prayer book.)
The game designers could code up several spells, some of which are prevalent, others which are arguably more powerful, would be found less frequently. Ideally, say there were 100-some spells coded up; a Mage/Priest would at 18/200 Int/Wis have the capacity to memorize 80-some. Not knowing if/when another spell-scroll might turn up, a player would be making a large decision on which spells to learn / not-learn along the way.
I believe it would be a better, more exciting way to play...Last edited by Spacebux; May 4, 2011, 23:02.Comment
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That ought to be trivial for you to change and test. Just set things up so that the max number of spells you can learn is half what it is now. Maybe cut the number available in half along the way. That's probably only a few lines of code to change. Play a bit and post your chars to the ladder.Comment
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If I am reading Spacebux's proposal correctly (and even more so in this most latest post), his proposal of spell-scrolls would allow a spell caster to customize their spell reporatory rather than carry the same set of spell books, and that gameplay would be different than finally finding a whole book farther down rather than individual spell scrolls, possibly earlier in the dungeon.
If that is so, I like it.Comment
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Spacebux: that's entirely fair. I suppose the cause of all this argument was that we (or at least, I) read your first post as "The game is flawed in this manner, and here is a possible fix for it", when in actuality it was "I don't like this particular aspect of the game; what about this alternate approach?" Though I don't doubt that even if I/we'd read the intent correctly there'd still be a big tactics discussion.
The priest spell list needs some work. In fact, both magic realms do, and there's been threads about what to do to them, though not for awhile. My personal inclination is to stick with the by-now thoroughly playtested book format, but as I said earlier I don't object in principle to finding spells piecemeal either.
One concern I have, though, with limiting "study charges" to fewer than there are spells is that it incentivizes the player to purposefully skip spells that make the early game easier in favor of learning late-game spells, which is a bizarre way to make the game harder. I generally don't like systems that say "You could be a bit stronger now, but if you want to be really strong later then you'll have to hold back."
Diablo II's basic skill system had many such issues, for example: you wouldn't invest in e.g. Fire Arrow because Immolation Arrow unlocked at level 18 and was basically strictly better. They fixed that issue by adding cross-skill synergies (so that points in Fire Arrow would make Immolation Arrow better). I suppose the analogy in Angband would be that you'd invest in e.g. elemental magic, or healing magic, or detection magic, and each spell in a given category would get boosts from having learned other spells in the category. But that's getting into variant territory, IMO.Comment
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This ^^^ (or a staff of speed, or a good supply of TO).
I do like the notion of mages pasting bits of parchment into a custom made spell book, but I can't help but wonder how long it would be before players learn the optimum spell selections (via spoilers, if not personal experience) and then compile books containing exactly those spells, and so all mages will be carrying (nearly) identical spell books once again.www.mediafire.com/buzzkill - Get your 32x32 tiles here. UT32 now compatible Ironband and Quickband 9/6/2012.
My banding life on Buzzkill's ladder.Comment
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Actually, there already is an optimum spell selection. However, one is NOT required to put forth the effort. E.g., I sometimes skip learning Detect Monsters in the early stages knowing full-well, soon enough, I will get Reveal down the road in book C, which surpasses that of Detect Monsters. (Yes, I know the latter requires more mana, but in terms of saving on Study sessions in the early game, I prefer to do it this way.)
My point, in the early stages of the game, unless you pick Half-Elf Mage with outstanding INT, normally, one does not garner enough Study sessions to learn all the spells offered in the base set of books at say level 15. Normally, one has to wait until level 20-something before the number of study sessions becomes adequate enough to fully learn all the beginning spells. So, in a sense, one is already playing the game.
When it comes to Advanced books, however, those are not found until DL40+... and a lot of the unique mobs must be surpassed because the base set of spells simply lack the firepower necessary to bring down mobs in mage fashion!! Yes, a lucky Mage might have a wand of annihilation, but most Mages won't or don't have such luck with their RNG's prior to running into Kavlax.
Advanced books usually appear below DL35... by which time, one has often accumulated enough XP to be close to character level 30, usually near mid-30s. A mid-30s mage, onwards, can generally have enough INT potions and other +INT gear on, such that picking up a new advanced book means picking up 4-5 new spells immediately... with only the highest level spells being yet unlearnable. That is just the nature of the game.
You can argue tactics all you want.
When you have a large number of spells, say 10-20 more than the current set of 63? for mages, maybe throw in a few spells like I suggested or create some other duplicate type spells - like minor recharging, major recharging, super-duper-recharging (w/ 1% blow-ability..?). Anyway - if/when the player knows what all the spells are, one will have a better idea in 3rd and 4th iterations what to expect and better know how to expend Study Sessions in the game progression. Sure, you might think, "ah.. Detect Monster's not worth it, I'll wait until I dig up 'Reveal'..." However, the likely-hood of discovering the 'Reveal' spell-scroll would depend on one's ability to dive deeper to find it w/out relying on Detect Monster in the interim. Maybe "Super-Duper-Recharge" existed, however, the chances of finding that spell scroll would be quite remote--hence... might not be worth the wait! You can still collect spell-scrolls in your book, just not learn them unless you feel its necessary. I.e., you may still possess 4 or 5 study sessions by the time you reach DL98. You may then say, well, probably not going to find "Super-Duper-Recharge", so, I may as well suck it up with Lesser Recharge... or some other spells you weren't really excited about taking earlier.
Or, maybe, the coders will be generous and state you can get the maximum number of study sessions for 18/200 INT Mages, but, still no guarantee one would find all the highest level spells without considerable effort on the player's part.
You might find Mana Storm, you might not...! But, you may get Rend Soul a lot sooner than normal, because it's not burried beneath DL80 with the rest of Kelek's.
Does that make sense??Comment
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Later on, like Random Artifacts, one would have a set of core spells for mages, and another random set of spells with variable damage rates, mana rates, effects, and such (not just the Wonder spell stuff). I don't know how the code defines random artifact abilities, but I think the same generation process could be used on spells & prayers.
E.g., the random process might generate a high-level cold-breath spell with a radius 4 blast for 220-dam at the center for 25 mana points with a fail rate of 25% at Level 40.
Or a Darkness-Bolt spell that is akin to lightning bolt but shoots out darkness through all mobs in a line.
You know you would still have your base set of spells guaranteed, but the game would generate a bunch of random (and sometimes useless) spells.Comment
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Just a random note: Kavlax is a terrible example. Everyone avoids him when he's anywhere near in-depth! Speed + gravity + nexus = no fun.
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Hurray for distractions. It is interesting and counter to traditional fantasy (whatever that is) that priests have a better damage spells than mages for most of the game. I found my only mage win to be extremely tedious and painful. Oh well - c'est la vie.
On point:
The repeating in general is a great boon as priests/paladins can get by with carrying far fewer books than mages towards the end. Paladins can get by with the detection book and a large heal book.How many Priest players, for example, are moaning and begrudging the fact there are 3 spells which are nothing but repeats of the same thing: Bless, Holy Chant, Holy Prayer??
Mages aren't so lucky, as an irreplaceable utility spell is in each of the lower books (MB1 - phase, MB2 - teleport, MB3 - cure hunger/identify, MB4-haste). That is, MB1-3 are more or less slot neutral. I've suggested before putting haste in MB8 and tele self in the escape book (MB7?), which fit thematically, though I doubt that will happen. Geez its been a while since I've played...Comment
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A bit of repeating won't hurt. There is a very annoying thing about mages, and that is no unified Detection spell. Then, you could put teleport and phase into Escapes and you'd have two more spaces. Too bad there isn't a utility spell book. In that you could have cure hunger, identify, haste, maybe some other stuff like Detection, prieststyle. Replace Tensers with it and keep Recharging. The buff spells you could put into Raal's and Kelek's instead of some of the less useful spells. Bedlam comes to mind.Comment
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