Waiting for the other shoe to drop

[Starhawk]

Still gunning for my first victory, and I've switched to warriors.

The RNG is taunting me with fortune and glory. Found an Amulet of Sustenance lying on the floor at DL13. A Potion of Augmentation shortly thereafter, and a Potion of Experience on DL23. Now I'm 16k standard turns into the game, and already CL29. The diving for gear commences.

I know it's only a matter of time before I meet some unique that stomps me into the dungeon floor. But that little glimmer of hope.... *shakes fist at RNG* Someday I will beat this game!!

[Derakon]

Heh. Best of luck!

For my money, paladins are the easiest class. Their melee combat is nearly as good as the warrior's (though with one fewer blow), and they get access to nearly all of the priest's spells, including such gems as Heal, Detection, and Sense Surroundings. Others may have an easier time with rangers, which arguably have a better set of spells for the early game, as well as Haste Self and Resistance, but their late-game spells just don't match up.

[Starhawk]

I started with rangers, and stuck to them exclusively for about a year.

I read some AAR from warrior winners, and found myself wondering how they get by without spells -- no Satisfy Hunger... no escape spells... so I started rolling a few.

Wow, night and day in the early game. My rangers tended to get trapped and killed before finding any worthwhile gear, and it generally took me 10-20 iterations of a character before I got to any meaningful depth. In comparison I've had a much easier time with warriors, due to the increased hit point pool. That extra blow is also useful.

I've had two warriors down to ~DL90 before losing them... never got a ranger that far before.

We'll see how this guy goes. I've found a randart Phial but still waiting on high-quality kit for everything else.

[Derakon]

Yeah, early game power goes something like warrior > paladin >> rogue > ranger > priest > mage -- there's a big gap between the first two and the rest. When you're first starting out, you want a character with as much early-game power as you can get your grubby little mitts on, which is why the recommended starting class is a half-troll warrior. You want to have a chance of surviving your mistakes, after all.

[Starhawk]

Oh, I've got the basic 4 + poison + FA covered... and a *slay evil* weapon with Telepathy.

Of course, I'm getting hammered with fear, blindness, and confusion. Diving is hard!

[Derakon]

Carry Heroism for fear, CCW for blindness/confusion, and don't melee enemies that cause blindness/confusion when they hit you. I've played three characters to endgame recently without resist confusion; it's doable, though you do have to keep staves of teleport/destruction in your inventory the entire time.

[Starhawk]

I've been playing a lot today, and actually have everything covered except for rBlind (and I have a weapon swap with ESP, so....).

Of course, the RNG did try its best -- Vargo the Fire Tyrant plasma-bolted me to 34hp before I escaped.

EDIT: Maybe a blow-by-blow on the forum isn't the best thing. So I learned how to make and upload a dump:

http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=11282

I found a skull vault with several good artifacts, including a weapon with double immunity. Mmmm, loaded for bear....

[Estie]

Yeah, early game power goes something like warrior > paladin >> rogue > ranger > priest > mage -- there's a big gap between the first two and the rest. When you're first starting out, you want a character with as much early-game power as you can get your grubby little mitts on, which is why the recommended starting class is a half-troll warrior. You want to have a chance of surviving your mistakes, after all.

Mmm I would make that warrior > ranger > mage > paladin > rogue > priest but I guess it depends on when you let the "early" game end.

Anyway...high elf warrior >> half troll warrior by huge margin.

Edit: I was thinking ranger with longbow; possibly its too hard in 3.2 to get a good launcher early, in which case ranger might suffer

Edit2: the reason paladin is so low is because I give them str, con and wis (no dex); it would be better for early game to get dex

[Derakon]

Edit2: the reason paladin is so low is because I give them str, con and wis (no dex); it would be better for early game to get dex

Well there's your problem.

Hybrids IMO should all but ignore their casting stat at the start (i.e. only put a few spare points into it), because physical capabilities matter so much more in the early game.

As for high-elves vs. half-trolls, basically you trade regeneration for See Invisible, which is a bad trade. See Invisible lets you deal with all those early ghosts, sure, but the early ghosts aren't going to do anything more dangerous than eat your food or drain stats that warriors don't care about. Regeneration, in contrast, massively improves your durability. And that's ignoring the +2 hit dice and +2 CON the half-troll has over the high-elf...nor the sustained strength (vs. resistance to light, but who cares about that?).

Now of course, beginners are going to notice the ability to see invisible much more than the regeneration, which means they're more likely to pick high-elves than half-trolls. That doesn't mean they're picking the easier race.

Finally, I divide the game up into three broad sections:
* Early game: up to around 1200' or so. The character has only one or two ego-items and is just diving to get to where good gear becomes more common. Experience level (and base stats) are the primary determinants of power.
* Mid game: up to around 2500' or so. A few artifacts have been found and the character is starting stat gain. Thanks to +1/-1 potions and the occasional Black Market purchase, important stats are nearing their maximums.
* Late game: the dive to the deeps and the search for gear.

[PowerDiver]

As for high-elves vs. half-trolls, basically you trade regeneration for See Invisible, which is a bad trade.

The reason I think high-elves are more likely to win is the better device skill. Perhaps that's because of my diving speed, but it is much more important than regen to me. The stealth is another plus for high-elves. I think they have better infravision as well, which can be the difference in seeing a pack of hounds before you detect or light the room.

[PowerDiver]

The reason I think high-elves are more likely to win is the better device skill.

I just realized that sentiment is based on when I played 3.0. Device activation rules have changed a lot since then, so I don't know how relevant it is now.

[Estie]

Trolls have
-regen
-sust str (which imo is big early game for warriors)
-a tad more hit points.

High elves:
-see invis, apart from the convenience of not getting drained by ghosts it eases equipment needs; something like =reckless attack where troll is using = see invis.
-stealth, imo the biggest
-saving throw
-device
-higher damage due to more dex (more attacks)
-res light, which is 1/3 res blindness early game

[Timo Pietilä]

Mmm I would make that warrior > ranger > mage > paladin > rogue > priest but I guess it depends on when you let the "early" game end.

Very much so, because I count this as

warrior > priest > paladin > ranger > rogue > mage. I have never had any problems with priest, their detection abilities give them edge above paladins, extremely fast level gain makes diving "too fast" no issue, and early and more powerful OoD takes care of the rest of the way. Mage with wimpy mm and very low HP mages it a difficult to play there.

In near endgame it is warrior > priest > ranger > mage > paladin > rogue. Priest second because healing makes dealing with just about anything easy, and warrior just can kill everything fast. At that point rogue has worst damage-dealing/combat endurance ratio. No serious distance-damage like mages, rangers or priests, no healing like priests or paladins.

In mid-game it is mage > ranger > rogue > paladin > warrior > priest (with very small difference between mage, ranger and rogue). At that point lack of detection (hounds) is making life really difficult for warriors, priests and paladins. If you get early ESP or Godly Insights then it gets easier fast. Mage spells are superior to the priests for a while there, and ranger and rogue benefit from them too in addition to ranger getting second shot and rogue getting ability to sneak past just about anything.

Fastest is probably warrior, easiest priest. Rogue is interesting, but hard at the end. Paladins are boring. Rangers make pincushions out of enemies, which can be fun.

[Scraper]

I think it depends a lot on your play style as well. I have played a lot of mages and more recently a couple of paladins. My playstyle has always been, though it is changing quite a lot now, "kill everything you can find" so as you can imagine, I've had very little success with mages. I haven't even got a mage close to end game yet.

My playstyle naturally makes playing mages harder imo. As a paladin, I can whack whack heal - rinse and repeat -. As a mage I don't have the luxury of free healing, so am in a constant battle to output as much damage as I can while trying to sustain as little as possible. Thus trying to kill the monster before it kills me. I've had a lot more close calls with a mage than with a pally. I can easily give up a few turns as a pally to heal myself to full. When I play a mage I am sometimes in such a precarious "do or die" position that my last key stroke of spell is pressed so heavily, I think my finger might go through my keyboard.

By the time I get to mid game, my mage doesn't have the gunning power versus the monsters I run into to kill them before they can kill me. Result = dead mage.

[ulrichvonbek]

Paladins are boring.

Can I ask why?