Yacd Rogue looking for any general advice.

**ulrichvonbek** · April 3, 2011, 23:33

Dropped by an Ogre at 750 feet (level 15)

I am so jealous. I've never seen such a good speed item drop at that depth. Speed is far more useful than rNexus, but a bad stat scramble really messes you up, as I know from recent experience. It's a strange juggling act.

I ended up using Isuldur for rNexus after a bad stat scramble most of that game. Other than boots of stability, I'm just remembering artifacts that might have it, but I'm sure I'm missing something.

You'll probably want rPoison at all times before going below 2000'. Also, hang on to Calris for the end game. That's a weapon you don't want to discard lightly.

**PowerDiver** · April 3, 2011, 23:38

For starters, throw away those mouse rings. To get a 5th blow, you are paying a penalty of 35 points of damage. Any of your other rings is better. It would be useful to see another dump without, so that we could see which weapons give how many blows without the mouse.

**Imp** · April 3, 2011, 23:59

Originally posted by PowerDiver

For starters, throw away those mouse rings. To get a 5th blow, you are paying a penalty of 35 points of damage. Any of your other rings is better. It would be useful to see another dump without, so that we could see which weapons give how many blows without the mouse.

I'll get a fresh dump with that shortly, I know when last I checked it was a minimal damage loss due to the extra blows but that was when i got started. I'll reevaluate it but I got the impression the extra stealth would be pretty nice for the minimal damage loss? Right now I rarely encounter anything awake and I'm fond of hitting people who don't hit back. I'll check the damage/blows with what I have and update. Does stealth have a diminishing return, max practical value I should aim for? Thanks for the help so far!

**Timo Pietilä** · April 4, 2011, 00:06

Originally posted by PowerDiver

For starters, throw away those mouse rings. To get a 5th blow, you are paying a penalty of 35 points of damage. Any of your other rings is better. It would be useful to see another dump without, so that we could see which weapons give how many blows without the mouse.

That mouse ring raises his DEX from 18/110+ to 18/150+, which mean one or more blows more. It also raises his stealth by 4, which is not bad either.

258.5 / 5 = (51.6+7) * 4 = 234.4 OTOH, that damage ring most certainly is better than Mouse.... I think RoDam + Mouse is the best combo.

**Derakon** · April 4, 2011, 00:10

Every 3 points of stealth doubles your sneakiness (i.e. halves the chances on any given monster turn that they will be disturbed by you). Max theoretical stealth is at +30, and your base stealth as a high-elf rogue is +9. That said, there's a practical limit -- if every fight starts with you rudely awakening your opponent, then you don't need more stealth.

**Timo Pietilä** · April 4, 2011, 00:14

Originally posted by Imp

hit back. I'll check the damage/blows with what I have and update. Does stealth have a diminishing return, max practical value I should aim for? Thanks for the help so far!

Max effective stealth is 30, which means 21 from equipment for Hi-Elf Rogue. Trickery +4, Elvenkind boots +5, Belegennon +4, Elvenkind Aman +5, Elvenkind shield +3 = 21.

You might actually get that in some point

. Not likely that you actually use that kind of combo, but who knows.

**Imp** · April 4, 2011, 00:30

Code:

  [Angband 3.2.0 Character Dump]

 Name   Stabby                                   Self  RB  CB  EB   Best
 Sex    Female       Age            109   STR:  18/62  +1  +2  +6 18/152
 Race   High-Elf     Height          87   INT:      9  +3  +1  +2     15
 Class  Rogue        Weight         197   WIS:      9  -1  -2  +2      8
 Title  Filcher      Social   Respected   DEX:  18/59  +3  +3  +0 18/119
 HP     258/258      Maximize         Y   CON:     12  +1  +1  +0     14
 SP     25/30                             CHR:     16  +5  -1  +2  18/40

 Level               29   Armor    [49,+70]     Saving Throw         78%
 Cur Exp         124893   Fight   (+22,+16)     Stealth           Superb
 Max Exp         124893   Melee   (+32,+28)     Fighting          Heroic
 Adv Exp         168750   Shoot   (+31,+17)     Shooting          Heroic
 MaxDepth   1700' (L34)   Blows    4.0/turn     Disarming            97%
 Game Turns      483370   Shots      1/turn     Magic Device          83
 Standard Turns   68595   Infra       40 ft     Perception       1 in 12
 Resting Turns     2571   Speed           9     Searching            35%
 Gold            204427   Burden  137.3 lbs

 You are the only child of a Vanyarin Ranger.  You have light grey
 eyes, straight black hair, and a fair complexion.



rAcid:......+.+.... rConf:.............
rElec:......+.+.... Sound:.............
rFire:+...+.+.+.... Shard:.............
rCold:+.....+.+.... Nexus:.............
rPois:............. Nethr:.............
rFear:............. Chaos:.............
rLite:....+....++.+ Disen:.............
rDark:....+........ S.Dig:+............
rBlnd:............. Feath:.............

Light:....+....++.. Aggrv:.............
Regen:............. Stea.:.......+.....
  ESP:............. Sear.:.............
Invis:............+ Infra:............+
FrAct:..........+.. Tunn.:.............
HLife:....+........ Speed:+..........+.
ImpHP:............. Blows:.............
ImpSP:............. Shots:.............
 Fear:............. Might:.+...........


  [Character Equipment]

a) The Pike 'Til-i-arc' (3d5) (+10,+12) [+10] (+2)
     Found lying on the floor at 1550 feet (level 31).
     
     +2 strength, intelligence, speed.
     Slays demons, trolls, giants.
     Branded with flames, frost.
     Provides resistance to fire, cold.
     Cannot be harmed by acid, electricity, fire, cold.
     Sustains intelligence.
     Slows your metabolism.  
     
     Combat info:
     4.0 blows/round.
     With an additional 3 strength and 0 dex you would get 4.1 blows
     With an additional 0 strength and 1 dex you would get 4.3 blows
     Average damage/round: 234.8 vs. demons, 234.8 vs. trolls, 234.8
     vs. giants, 234.8 vs. creatures not resistant to fire, 234.8 vs.
     creatures not resistant to cold, and 156 vs. others.
     
b) a Heavy Crossbow of Extra Might (x5) (+9,+17) (+1)
     Found lying on the floor at 1550 feet (level 31).
     
     +1 shooting power.
     
c) a Ring of Strength (+4)
     Dropped by an Illusionist at 850 feet (level 17).
     
     +4 strength.
     Sustains strength.
     
d) (nothing)
e) an Amulet of Devotion (+2)
     Found lying on the floor at 1500 feet (level 30).
     
     +2 wisdom, charisma.
     Provides resistance to fire, light, dark.
     Sustains wisdom, charisma.
     Sustains your life force.  
     
     Radius 1 light.
f) The Phial of Galadriel
     Dropped by Beorn, the Shape-Changer at 1500 feet (level 30).
     
     Cannot be harmed by acid, electricity, fire, cold.
     
     When activated, it lights up the surrounding area, hurting
     light-sensitive creatures.
     Takes 20 to 38 turns to recharge at your current speed.
     Your chance of success is 96.4%
     
     Radius 3 light.
g) Metal Scale Mail of Resistance [38,+14]
     Found lying on the floor at 1500 feet (level 30).
     
     Provides resistance to acid, lightning, fire, cold.
     Cannot be harmed by acid, electricity, fire, cold.
     
h) a Cloak of Stealth [1,+3] (+3 stealth)
     Found lying on the floor at 1550 feet (level 31).
     
     +3 stealth.
     
i) a Small Metal Shield of Resistance [5,+17]
     Dropped by a Gnome mage at 1000 feet (level 20).
     
     Provides resistance to acid, lightning, fire, cold.
     Cannot be harmed by acid, electricity, fire, cold.
     
j) a Hard Leather Cap of Light [2,+6]
     Dropped by a Black pudding at 1550 feet (level 31).
     
     Provides resistance to light.
     
     Radius 1 light.
k) The Set of Leather Gloves 'Cammithrim' (+5,+5) [1,+10]
     Dropped by a Novice rogue at 1650 feet (level 33).
     
     Provides resistance to light.
     Cannot be harmed by acid, electricity, fire, cold.
     Sustains constitution.
     Prevents paralysis.  
     
     When aimed, it fires a magic missile with damage 3d4.
     Takes 3 turns to recharge at your current speed.
     Your chance of success is 95.9%
     
     Radius 1 light.
l) a Pair of Leather Boots of Speed [2,+3] (+7)
     Dropped by an Ogre at 750 feet (level 15).
     
     +7 speed.
     


  [Character Quiver]

n) 39 Bolts (1d5) (+0,+0)
     Bought from a store.
     
     Combat info:
     Hits targets up to 160 feet away.
     Average damage/round: 102.
     25% chance of breaking upon contact.
     
o) (nothing)
p) (nothing)
q) (nothing)
r) (nothing)
s) (nothing)
t) (nothing)
u) (nothing)
v) (nothing)
w) (nothing)


  [Character Inventory]

a) 2 Books of Magic Spells [Magic for Beginners]
     
     
b) a Holy Book of Prayers [Exorcism and Dispelling]
     Found lying on the floor at 1650 feet (level 33).
     
     
     
c) 3 Rations of Food
     Bought from a store.
     
     
d) 10 Potions of Cure Serious Wounds
     
e) 11 Potions of Cure Critical Wounds
     
f) 4 Potions of Healing
     
g) 4 Potions of Speed
     
     
h) 2 Rods of Slow Monster
     
     
i) a Rod of Recall
     Found lying on the floor at 1500 feet (level 30).
     
     Cannot be harmed by electricity.
     
j) a Staff of Teleportation (7 charges)
     
k) a Staff of Identify (10 charges)
     
l) a Ring of Resist Poison
     Found lying on the floor at 1550 feet (level 31).
     
     Provides resistance to poison.
     
m) a Ring of Reckless Attacks (+5,+3) [-15]
     Dropped by an Orc shaman at 1650 feet (level 33).
     
     
     
n) a Ring of the Mouse (+0,-7) (+4 stealth)
     +4 dexterity, stealth.
     
o) a Pair of Leather Sandals of Stability [1,+7]
     Found lying on the floor at 1000 feet (level 20).
     
     Provides resistance to nexus.
     Feather Falling.  
     
p) a Lucerne Hammer of Extra Attacks (2d5) (+7,+6) (+1)
     Found lying on the floor at 1650 feet (level 33).
     
     +1 attack speed.
     
     Combat info:
     5.1 blows/round.
     With an additional 3 strength and 0 dex you would get 5.3 blows
     With an additional 0 strength and 1 dex you would get 5.5 blows
     Average damage/round: 138.8.
     


  [Home Inventory]

a) a Book of Magic Spells [Conjurings and Tricks]
     Dropped by a Ranger at 1150 feet (level 23).
     
     
     
b) a Book of Magic Spells [Incantations and Illusions]
     Found lying on the floor at 850 feet (level 17).
     
     
     
c) a Book of Magic Spells [Resistances of Scarabtarices]
     Found lying on the floor at 1550 feet (level 31).
     
     Cannot be harmed by acid, electricity, fire, cold.
     
d) a Mushroom of Vigor
     Dropped by an Orc shaman at 1000 feet (level 20).
     
     
e) 28 Potions of Cure Critical Wounds
     
f) a Potion of Restore Dexterity
     Bought from a store.
     
     
     
g) 4 Staves of Teleportation (32 charges)
     
h) a Staff of Identify (12 charges)
     
i) a Ring of Strength (+3)
     Found in a chest from 1650 feet (level 33).
     
     +3 strength.
     Sustains strength.
     
j) a Ring of Constitution (+2)
     Dropped by a Law drake at 1650 feet (level 33).
     
     +2 constitution.
     Sustains constitution.
     
k) a Ring of Damage (+0,+8)
     Dropped by a Gnome mage at 1350 feet (level 27).
     
     
     
l) a Ring of Accuracy (+20,+0)
     Found lying on the floor at 1450 feet (level 29).
     
     
     
m) a Ring of Protection [+15]
     Dropped by an unknown monster at 1400 feet (level 28).
     
     
     
n) a Ring of Protection [+10]
     Dropped by a Mind flayer at 1400 feet (level 28).
     
     
     
o) a Ring of Escaping (+4 speed)
     Found lying on the floor at 850 feet (level 17).
     
     +4 speed.
     Makes you afraid of melee, and worse at shooting and casting
     spells.  
     
p) a Ring of the Mouse (+0,-7) (+4 stealth)
     +4 dexterity, stealth.
     
q) a Ring of Free Action
     Bought from a store.
     
     Prevents paralysis.  
     
r) a Set of Leather Gloves of Power (+5,+3) [1,+5] (+3)
     Found lying on the floor at 1350 feet (level 27).
     
     +3 strength.
     
s) a Pair of Steel Shod Boots of Stealth [7,+3] (+2)
     Dropped by an Algroth at 1350 feet (level 27).
     
     +2 stealth.
     
t) The Rapier 'Forasgil' (1d6) (+12,+19)
     Dropped by Wormtongue, Agent of Saruman at 700 feet (level 14).
     
     Slays animals.
     Branded with frost.
     Provides resistance to cold, light.
     Cannot be harmed by acid, electricity, fire, cold.
     
     Combat info:
     5.0 blows/round.
     Average damage/round: 207 vs. animals, 225 vs. creatures not
     resistant to cold, and 188.5 vs. others.
     
     Radius 1 light.
u) The Bastard Sword 'Calris' (5d4) (-18,+20) (+5) {cursed}
     Found in a chest from 1500 feet (level 30).
     
     Heavily cursed.
     +5 constitution.
     Slays evil creatures, demons, trolls.
     *Slays* dragons.
     Provides resistance to disenchantment.
     Cannot be harmed by acid, electricity, fire, cold.
     Aggravates creatures nearby.  
     
     Combat info:
     4.0 blows/round.
     With an additional 3 strength and 0 dex you would get 4.1 blows
     With an additional 0 strength and 1 dex you would get 4.3 blows
     Average damage/round: 245.2 vs. evil creatures, 297.6 vs. demons,
     297.6 vs. trolls, 402.8 vs. dragons, and 192.8 vs. others.
     
v) a Lucerne Hammer of Westernesse (2d5) (+6,+12) (+2)
     Dropped by Draebor, the Imp at 1500 feet (level 30).
     
     +2 strength, dexterity, constitution.
     Slays orcs, trolls, giants.
     Prevents paralysis.  Grants the ability to see invisible things.  
     
     Combat info:
     4.7 blows/round.
     With an additional 1 strength and 0 dex you would get 5.0 blows
     With an additional 0 strength and 1 dex you would get 5.0 blows
     Average damage/round: 229.4 vs. orcs, 229.4 vs. trolls, 229.4 vs.
     giants, and 168.5 vs. others.
     
w) a Long Bow (x3) (+10,+8)
     Bought from a store.

Here we are without the mouse ring. Damage is close between forasgil and the pike but given he brands and stats on the pike it seems like the better choice. If I put the damage ring on I'll end up doing ~10 more damage on average vs wearing the mouse ring. Not sure that's worth the stealth loss. Guess I'll play with it a bit and see if it's noticeable.

**PowerDiver** · April 4, 2011, 00:31

Originally posted by Timo Pietilä

258.5 / 5 = (51.6+7) * 4 = 234.4 OTOH, that damage ring most certainly is better than Mouse.... I think RoDam + Mouse is the best combo.

Ring slots are generally too precious for a ring of the mouse. Whatever the other choice, I'd rather a ring with a sustain (str or con) or resist poison (doesn't save you when it's in your pack) or something else. I'd consider the str+4 as being equivalent to +6 damage as well, and even more if it grants an extra blow. I'd use it over dam+7 for the value of the sustain, even without it granting an extra blow.

As to diminishing returns on stealth, there are plenty of monsters that start awake so stealth is irrelevant. Hounds have been nerfed, so my sensibilities remaining from 3.0 may be clouding my judgment, but I'd trade stealth for the ability to dispatch a hound in fewer rounds.

**PowerDiver** · April 4, 2011, 00:35

The other bonus from Til-i-arc is the +2 speed. That's roughly another +10% damage because you get more turns.

**Derakon** · April 4, 2011, 01:09

Originally posted by PowerDiver

As to diminishing returns on stealth, there are plenty of monsters that start awake so stealth is irrelevant.

I wouldn't go that far. Many, if not most, monsters start asleep, and being able to take them out at your own pace (or even just at a lesser pace than having them all awake immediately) makes a noticeable difference. Isn't that one of the big reasons not to loiter on a level? Because more and more monsters will be awake?

That said, Rings of the Mouse are of dubious value, but they're not outright worthless. They'd be better if the -to damage was capped at -5 though, I think. Then the DEX boost would have better chances of counteracting the damage penalty. As it is they're generally a stealth-damage tradeoff.

**Timo Pietilä** · April 4, 2011, 05:45

Originally posted by Imp

Here we are without the mouse ring. Damage is close between forasgil and the pike but given he brands and stats on the pike it seems like the better choice.

Til-i-Arc has +2 speed. With speed only +7 otherwise that has big impact on damage. You can't cast haste yet reliably, so +2 to +7 is 1.7 * damage vs 1.9 * damage.

It is also double-branded weapon so nearly everything is vulnerable to one of those.

Til-i-Arc: 234.8 * 1.9 = 446.12, Forasgil 225 * 1.7 = 382.5

I'd go with the Pike (with uncursed Calris as disenchantment swap once you have it uncursed).

**Timo Pietilä** · April 4, 2011, 05:50

Originally posted by Derakon

I wouldn't go that far. Many, if not most, monsters start asleep, and being able to take them out at your own pace (or even just at a lesser pace than having them all awake immediately) makes a noticeable difference. Isn't that one of the big reasons not to loiter on a level? Because more and more monsters will be awake?

That said, Rings of the Mouse are of dubious value, but they're not outright worthless. They'd be better if the -to damage was capped at -5 though, I think.

My current char is using one +4 PVAL with just -4 to damage. Clearly best ring I have even counting small RoDam I have (but this is very early rogue, not even using ego-weapon yet).

**PowerDiver** · April 4, 2011, 07:01

Originally posted by PowerDiver

As to diminishing returns on stealth, there are plenty of monsters that start awake so stealth is irrelevant.

That sure came out wrong.

I meant to write that stealth was irrelevant *for those monsters*. Once you get past a certain amount of stealth, dealing with hounds and pit monsters is more relevant than a bit more stealth. More stealth doesn't matter with monsters that would have remained asleep for the time it took to run past them to another part of the level.

**Napsterbater** · April 4, 2011, 07:22

I always ?Restore Item on my rings of mouse and it removes the damage mod. That's the only way I'd ever use one.

Yacd Rogue looking for any general advice.

Yacd Rogue looking for any general advice.

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