Making the game harder, take three

[nppangband]

I might look into how NPP does teleport-to and see how well it'd work in V.

We're hoping to pull monster mana from NPP (on the way to trying to pull as much 4GAI as we can I think) so maybe we could pull this also if it seems like it'd work.

I will be interested to see how you do it. I think it is a good system and a worthy addition to V, but there is still plenty of room for improvement.

I am happy to see you all are doing this. Let me know if I can help in any way. Now if I could just convince you all to put NPP quests and druids into Vanilla, I could almost retire.

[nppangband]

NPP teleport-to is a very, very nasty device. If a monster on the level has teleport-to and you can't kill them, then pretty much your only solutions are either to destruct them or to leave the level. If you teleport them away they'll just be right back 10-15 turns later.

The concent of monster teleport-to-player can can be implemented in many different ways, not just the way it is in NPP. It is deliberately a very nasty in NPP, because I am striving to create a cruel and unforgviing dungeon. It can be done in a way that it will fit into vanilla without turning it into NPP.

The main danger is with greater vaults, where a 3500' level lich can suddenly attack a player at 2000' by teleporting out of a vault. You can do things like prevent monsters in vaults from casting teleport-to.

[Derakon]

Certainly. It bugs me a bit though that monsters have a semi-controlled teleport spell, when the player doesn't get that. This could I suppose be rationalized as the monster trying repeated random teleports until they end up close enough, though then I'd want the mana cost to shoot way up.

The player also doesn't get "teleport monster to be adjacent to me" either, which could conceivably be useful for the hybrid classes.

[d_m]

I will be interested to see how you do it. I think it is a good system and a worthy addition to V, but there is still plenty of room for improvement.

I am happy to see you all are doing this. Let me know if I can help in any way. Now if I could just convince you all to put NPP quests and druids into Vanilla, I could almost retire.

You know, I think Takkaria was talking about adding Druids, but I can't quite recall. I would support it for sure.

Quests are probably a longer shot, although there might be some related work...

[fizzix]

Certainly. It bugs me a bit though that monsters have a semi-controlled teleport spell, when the player doesn't get that. This could I suppose be rationalized as the monster trying repeated random teleports until they end up close enough, though then I'd want the mana cost to shoot way up.

The player also doesn't get "teleport monster to be adjacent to me" either, which could conceivably be useful for the hybrid classes.

I think teleport-to as it currently is should only be available in LoS. Also it should be available to the player. I could see it as a Paladin or Priest spell.

Teleport/blink should be available out of LOS. Probably blink is the only one that's useful. Monsters wouldn't control where they landed any more than players. Letting monsters blink out of LOS should certainly be added to V. Maybe I'll actually look into making a patch if people think it's a good idea.

[Magnate]

You know, I think Takkaria was talking about adding Druids, but I can't quite recall. I would support it for sure.

Dream on - we have enough work to do on the spellcasting we already have!

Quests are probably a longer shot, although there might be some related work...

Hmmm. If anything I'd expect Takkaria to want to add (more) quests before more spell realms. But that's not based on any solid evidence.

We are overtly borrowing a lot from both NPP and S though, which is all good IMO. In particular I want to steal NPP's level feelings implementation, so that it is utterly impossible to predict when a level feeling will come, and it no longer prejudices the next level if you descend too quickly. Monster mana is also coming - there's already a branch at github/elly/angband ready to merge and add the NPP mana values.

But Jeff - you can't retire until we've sorted out the game of shopping in V!

[Magnate]

Magical regen really needs to be moved to a pval-based system IMO, with the current amount that the REGEN flag gives requiring at least a +3 modifier. And regen in general could be more easily implemented in code; currently it uses a powers-of-2 system like stealth does which makes it hard to understand.

Yes yes yes! I am definitely up for this - and it's *much* easier to implement for regen than for ESP ;-)

EDIT: GMTA again - I went to open a ticket for this, and discovered I'd already thought of it in http://trac.rephial.org/ticket/1182.

[Antoine]

We are overtly borrowing a lot from both NPP and S though, which is all good IMO. In particular I want to steal NPP's level feelings implementation, so that it is utterly impossible to predict when a level feeling will come, and it no longer prejudices the next level if you descend too quickly. Monster mana is also coming - there's already a branch at github/elly/angband ready to merge and add the NPP mana values.

Nice work!

A.

[nppangband]

Dream on - we have enough work to do on the spellcasting we already have!

(regarding druids) Just say the word, and I will push something to you at github.

Have you all considered adding the Sangband project spells? It would get rid of the hockey stick projections, and (IMHO) make line-of-sight a little more consistent. Definitely not perfect, but there are less issues. It was difficult to convert them from Sang to NPP, but I think they would go from NPP to the current vanilla fairly smoothly.

It does open up some fun new spell possibilities, such as cone shaped arcs. I have a greater variety of possible spells (NPP also has effects code that allows spells to have a duration other than instant). Anssi Ramela created a fine new list of spells for NPP mages and priests. But I don't think we have come even close to exploring the full variety of spells we could create. That will probably the theme of a whole new NPP release soon.

[nppangband]

But Jeff - you can't retire until we've sorted out the game of shopping in V!

That's a hard one. I think we saw the same problem and our solutions took us in completely opposite directions. We have both made improvements to the store system, but we both have a long way to go before we will consider it fully fixed.

I am just happy haggling is a think of the past. I frequently get nostalgic for moria features, but never once have I missed that one.

[nppangband]

You should be able to clear the half of the level the nasty isn't on, lure it over to your cleared half, tSelf and clear the other half. But it does require monsters not to have excessive detection ranges.

NPP has a slightly different philosophy. I am striving to create a game where the player is always in danger from something. In an ideal NPP dungeon, clearing a level should almost always be a difficult accomplishment. And I wish going up and down stairs would always be an "out of the frying pan and into the fire" experience. But I do try to err on the side of caution so players find the game to be a fair experience.

[Magnate]

I am just happy haggling is a think of the past. I frequently get nostalgic for moria features, but never once have I missed that one.

Whereas I, were I to create sockpuppet, would style myself The Last Haggler. If Joshua ever removes it from S I will be gutted ...

[Derakon]

(regarding druids) Just say the word, and I will push something to you at github.

Have you all considered adding the Sangband project spells? It would get rid of the hockey stick projections, and (IMHO) make line-of-sight a little more consistent. Definitely not perfect, but there are less issues. It was difficult to convert them from Sang to NPP, but I think they would go from NPP to the current vanilla fairly smoothly.

I do really like how NPP shows you the path that a projectile would take when you're in targeting mode. And I'm fine with changing the hockeystick so that you can't (directly) hit monsters that can't hit you.

Conic breath attacks are neat and certainly more flavorful than "just another ball spell", so no objections if they make it over too.

[Magnate]

I do really like how NPP shows you the path that a projectile would take when you're in targeting mode.

This has been on the to-do list for over four years (ticket #21), but it's never got to the top of anyone's individual workplan. Patches welcome!

[nppangband]

This has been on the to-do list for over four years (ticket #21), but it's never got to the top of anyone's individual workplan. Patches welcome!

That's about a 20 line patch that will take 5 minutes to create. I will send it along.