I needed that

[diabloblanco]

Law Dragon Scale Mail dropped by a Large Kobold at 800'. Combined with a Cutlass of Westernesse dropped by Smeagol at 200', not too shabby of a start.

BTW, I notice reading the FAQs and some of others' posts and it seems a lot of you dive way deep quickly. For instance, my high-elf mage is Level 20 and working at 800' right now. Then again, you also talk of winning and I've never won the game without save-scumming. I usually play conservatively (as you can no doubt tell), level-wise, with a high-elf mage but I go through every level complete no matter the level feeling. Even if I don't find things on ground, I do tend to get decent monster drops. The kobold drop was definitely a nice surprise.

Or am I going at it wrong, strategy-wise? While my deaths are usually the result of foolishness, looking for some alternative insights to get back in the winning circle. Thanks.

[Derakon]

As long as you're enjoying the game, play how you like.

However, if you want to play to win, then it's generally recommended that you try to keep your game relatively short. The longer a game goes on, the more opportunities there are for you to make a stupid mistake (or just plain get unlucky), even if you're comparatively powerful for your depth. Moreover, the more time you invest in a given character, the more attached to them you become and the less likely you are to want to pick the game back up when they die.

Also, for my part I enjoy the game more when it's more dangerous and each scenario has a very real chance of resulting in my character's death. To get that kind of gameplay you have to dive.

[diabloblanco]

When you describe that kind of diving, how far how fast? Let's say you are playing a mage, do you just wait until you have identify and then go crazy to 3,000' and hunt around there, knowing you could be toast at any moment?

[Derakon]

I would say that the main blockers to diving are good detection and covering free action / blindness / confusion. Once you have those, you can pretty much go where you please; you just have to be very careful. Basic resists are useful, but keep in mind that big targets will be able to kill you in one breath anyway.

That said, I don't usually dive that fast. My current character's a warrior, character level 32 and dungeon level 1800'. That's pretty standard for me.

[Timo Pietilä]

When you describe that kind of diving, how far how fast?

If you want a lesson of how fast dives are possible read some of the Eddie (PowerDiver) messages. His speed is so huge that I apparently can't match that even with suicide-divers. It feels like he finds stairs faster than I can.

OTOH he has also developed escaping and avoidance to a level of artwork, because anything "in depth" can kill him for a long time. That might not suit you, or feel fun. I certainly get bored of being extra super hyper careful for all my movements being scared of 90% of dungeon inhabitants very fast.

That said, diving (and dying trying) is a very effective method of learning the game and what you really need down there. You notice soon that resistances and many abilities are overrated, speed, stealth, HP, damage dealing, good awareness of your surroundings and knowledge how to get away from bad situation safely goes above all of those, even basic4 resist.

[PowerDiver]

Or am I going at it wrong, strategy-wise? While my deaths are usually the result of foolishness, looking for some alternative insights to get back in the winning circle. Thanks.

The longer you play, the more likely you are to do something mortally foolish.

Your attention is a resource. It is more important than any single resist. If your playstyle increases the number of times you are careless in a game, that is evidence of mistaken priorities.

You may think it is conservative to go slowly, but it can be more conservative to dive like crazy. If your games take too long, and you don't have Timo's amazing level of concentration, that is a deadly strategic error, and most likely you will lose.

Are you getting into situations where you have to stretch your abilities to survive? In other words, are you learning and getting better with each game? You can't expect to win if you aren't on the path of improving your skills.

I'm biased, both because I think it is much more fun to play underpowered and because I take pride in my turncounts. I might be overstating my case, but that's how I see it.

[Mondkalb]

Cleaning whole levels and being overcautious reminds me of my own past, when I tried many years in vain to win the game.

I still tend to clean a level early on if the level feeling hints a good item but I am diving much faster than I used to.
Since then I have won the game four times.

It is also a little bit easier to accept the loss of a character if the time spent was reasonable for the level.
I currently have a cLevel 39 character chasing dLevel 71 and hunting great wyrms and such, started three days ago.

Diving speed is more a matter of detection abilities and covered resistances and character speed.

[HallucinationMushroom]

Between my big jump from Moria to Angband I played a lot of Diablo 1 which I blame for my then sudden compulsion to clear all the levels. Diablo seemed built for clearing all the levels which seemed a sound way to make sure you were strong enough to win the game. However, clearing 100 levels is not quite the same as clearing 16! Like others have said, you would need superhuman endurance to do it.

When I was first seriously playing Angband I got to level 60 something clearing most of every level on the way before I got killed by a grand master mystic because I hadn't learned that consecutive stunning will knock you out. I can't tell you how many hours I lost or how many months it took me to fire up the game again. It was a serious blow in more ways than one!

[diabloblanco]

Thanks for the advice, everyone. I generally do stay pretty attentive when I play and the characters I run usually have a decent amount of stealth so I can usually stay out of minor trouble. Don't get me wrong, I'm not dawdling at 50-100' the whole time. Where I get myself in major trouble is going down to 1500' and sweeping the dungeon trying to find stat-boosting potions while taking on every monster that crosses my path. Although I will pass up jelly pits unless I am feeling masochistic. Not much reward for the effort.

I'm guessing Resist Confusion, Dark, Poison, Nether are the more important ones to have when diving. See Invisible and Free Action obviously.

Considering I've got some decent equipment to start off with, am diving a bit deeper although not cleaning the dungeon floor will be a tough habit to break.

[Timo Pietilä]

I'm guessing Resist Confusion, Dark, Poison, Nether are the more important ones to have when diving. See Invisible and Free Action obviously.

Got two right. Confusion and poison. Add blindness and maybe nexus. Even confusion is debatable do you need it or not, confusion from distance isn't that common after all. Luckily it is very easy to get from multiple sources, so you don't need to worry about it for long.

Nether definitely is not one of the ones you need ever. Dark maybe with combination of light, because it prevents blinding from dark hounds (same with light), but after you have blindness resist you don't need dark any longer.

[Mondkalb]

Without rNether you need at least a good knowledge of which monsters may breathe Nether or cast Nether spells ...
I think Nether attacks can be quite dangerous.

[Derakon]

Nether can certainly be quite dangerous; its damage cap is 550. However, with resistance its damage cap is ~470. The amount of damage reduction you get from nether resistance is random each time you get hit, so on average you'll take less, but you can't count on it.

[Djabanete]

I've seen it claimed that playing conservatively is less safe (counterintuitively), and that playing a faster game reduces the chance of silly mistakes and is therefore safer. In my experience though, this is wrong. If you have the patience, playing it slow and clearing levels will lead to a character who has lots of XP and gear for his level and who can outclass almost every monster he runs into. (Remember that no matter who you are, sometimes you will have to retreat.) I think that a beginner playing this way is more likely to win than a beginner trying to dive fast right from the start. After my first win (a slow grind), I switched over to faster play and littered the dungeon with dead @'s. When I slowed down again, I won again without ever feeling endangered. (Usually what I do now is play really fast until I have a character worth keeping alive, and then slow down a notch.)

The tendency is for experienced players to get impatient with slow play and tend towards more and more aggressive play (depth-wise). That's just what happens as you get more familiar with the game; you learn what corners can be safely cut, and generally streamline your play to get deeper faster without suiciding your character.

Play how you like. But if you're getting bored, you're probably ready to dive faster. And remember that everybody dies a *lot* before their first win.

[Derakon]

Past a certain point (around about 2000', I'd guess), no matter how powerful you are you will run into situations that are capable of killing you quickly. You will die to several of these before you learn to recognize and deal with them. It's better to have invested comparatively little time to get to that depth and learn the dangers than it is to have spent weeks getting there, die, and then lose all motivation to play for the next several months.

[PowerDiver]

If you have the patience, playing it slow and clearing levels will lead to a character who has lots of XP and gear for his level and who can outclass almost every monster he runs into. (Remember that no matter who you are, sometimes you will have to retreat.) I think that a beginner playing this way is more likely to win than a beginner trying to dive fast right from the start. After my first win (a slow grind), I switched over to faster play and littered the dungeon with dead @'s. When I slowed down again, I won again without ever feeling endangered.

You are making my point for me. When you littered the dungeon with @'s, you were honing your skills at an accelerated rate. That's why you were so much better, afterward, when you slowed down.

While it is true that in a particular game diving may reduce your chances to win *that game*, I believe that even for a beginner it increases the chances of winning *overall* when you include future games.

And it's a whole lot more fun to dive than to hold down an arrow key killing orcs.