Cheater!

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  • Xaxyx
    Scout
    • Feb 2010
    • 37

    Cheater!

    After much trial and tribulation, I have achieved my glorious second victory against Morgoth. This time with 3.2 and the shiny new random artifacts feature. Another high-elf ranger. You can find my dump here.

    Quite a few impressive finds, I feel obliged to admit, including a splendiferous long bow (just what an aspiring ranger needs) and a double-immunity cloak, resulting in a total of three immunities. My kit was so thorough that both ring slots were free for =speed -- overkill really, but who am I to argue?

    I do seem to finally have a better feel for the power curve, figuring out what I can handle and what I need to avoid. Similarly, I've also made progress on the *real* source of death of my characters -- me. I keep an eye out for boredom, and have learned to take things verrry slowwwwly when I sit down to play after a break as I seem to have a tendency at such times to rush in headlong and eat nasty spells to the face.

    When I engaged Morgoth, I started doing that hockey-puck thing again, shooting him around corners. But after a while, I decided to be brazen, and just shoot him in the open. The fight became much more interesting -- healing from spell damage, teleporting stuff away, destructing when things got out of control. I feel like I'm ready to try out other classes, and perhaps spice things up with a few difficulty toggles -- disconnected stairs, and such.

    Just one problem, though. I'm a cheater.

    You see, I never set foot in Angband anymore without turning on "Know complete monster info". It seems foolhardy to me to do otherwise. There's just too many obscure baddies lurking around down there that can obliterate characters instantly. Do I have to expend an entire character's life just to learn that ethereal dragons or drolems or (insert random funky unique with bizarro ranged attack here) can rip my head off at a whim even if I have the "correct" resistance? That just seems like way, way too expensive a price to pay for knowledge.

    That's meta-game knowledge already, in fact. My "new" character has no way of knowing what some crazy half-dragon, half-potato can spit out of its nose. Yet monster abilities are constant from game to game. Indeed, I challenge anyone to look me in the eye and claim that anyone has any real chance at winning this game without knowing *precisely* what every single one of these enemies is actually capable of.

    So ultimately, everyone's already got their characters skulking carefully around the dungeon based on knowledge not directly available to that character. Everyone's already doing what I do. I'm just being blatant about it. So why, then, is it "cheating" to have the game confirm what I already know? How is it "cheating" to use the in-game interface as a handy, dandy reference of who can breathe what and when, as opposed to what I used to do, which was to have the monster spoiler files sitting open in the next window?

    Thus I petition that "Know all monster info" at least be moved out of the list of cheat options. The other flags in that list are legitimate cheats, in my opinion: knowing about what was randomized *in that game*. Information not available to the character *or* to the player in any fashion. Information that the character needs to discover during his journey. Information that's actually part of the game challenge, part of the fun. Reading on your tombstone "Oh, by the way, didn't you know that Greater Basilisks can breathe nexus?" Not fun.
  • zaimoni
    Knight
    • Apr 2007
    • 590

    #2
    The next release of Zaiband will convert the know-all-monsters option from cheat-default-off to ironman-default-on.
    Zaiband: end the "I shouldn't have survived that" experience. V3.0.6 fork on Hg.
    Zaiband 3.0.10 ETA Mar. 7 2011 (Yes, schedule slipped. Latest testing indicates not enough assert() calls to allow release.)
    Z.C++: pre-alpha C/C++ compiler system (usable preprocessor). Also on Hg. Z.C++ 0.0.10 ETA December 31 2011

    Comment

    • buzzkill
      Prophet
      • May 2008
      • 2939

      #3
      I've won, and I never used any cheat options or spoilers. It is possible.
      • There is the knowledge of your ancestors.
      • There are rods of probing that can fill in holes in your monster memory.
      • There is extreme caution.
      • and of course there is always trial and error.


      Knowing exactly every ability of every monster is (IMO) cheating (to a lesser extent). If you want to play that way and feel better about it, then turn on 'monsters exploit players weaknesses' too, as well as the other AI stuff.
      www.mediafire.com/buzzkill - Get your 32x32 tiles here. UT32 now compatible Ironband and Quickband 9/6/2012.
      My banding life on Buzzkill's ladder.

      Comment

      • will_asher
        DaJAngband Maintainer
        • Apr 2007
        • 1124

        #4
        It isn't cheating.

        In DaJAngband, the know-all-monster-info option is still geographically on the cheat menu, but it isn't called a cheat option and doesn't prevent scoring like the cheat options do.

        (Well I guess the name of the option is technically still "cheat_know" but it doesn't say "cheat:" by the description at least.)

        EDIT: There, I just changed the name of the option. It's now "know_races" instead of "cheat_know". It's only in the cheat menu because there's no room left on the birth options menu. (One of these days, I'm going to need to add an option menu)
        Last edited by will_asher; February 11, 2011, 08:16.
        Will_Asher
        aka LibraryAdventurer

        My old variant DaJAngband:
        http://sites.google.com/site/dajangbandwebsite/home (defunct and so old it's forked from Angband 3.1.0 -I think- but it's probably playable...)

        Comment

        • Derakon
          Prophet
          • Dec 2009
          • 9022

          #5
          Honestly, I'm not too bothered by people who choose to use the cheats, but I also do feel like discovering what monsters are capable of is part of the fun of the game for newcomers to an extent. The fact that monsters can kill you from nothing is a problem, but once you get the basic 4 + poison covered, caution + probing should be sufficient to discover other major dangers. But if you don't feel like discovering monster abilities is fun, then by all means, turn the cheat on.

          Comment

          • PowerDiver
            Prophet
            • Mar 2008
            • 2820

            #6
            Originally posted by Xaxyx
            Just one problem, though. I'm a cheater.
            I suppose all of the people who click on the Civ-pedia to see the stats of a unit when playing Civ are cheaters too. And the people who read the manuals that come with games, if they have games old enough to have come with a real manual.

            The option should be inverted and renamed to "disable parts of the in-game manual".

            Comment

            • LostTemplar
              Knight
              • Aug 2009
              • 670

              #7
              Anyone can get competition savefile and start a new char in it anyway, so yes, this option should not be cheating, just normal option.

              Comment

              • kingvictory2003
                Scout
                • Oct 2009
                • 37

                #8
                I don't know the current state of the probing mechanic in vanilla, but if it is still consistent with older versions (pre 3.0) then it only gives you a few tidbits of information. Those few tidbits may give you enough info to save you, but most likely, will not. Hence, IMHO, pretty useless.

                Probing in Hengband OTOH gives complete monster knowledge, which is indeed very powerful (and I guess by certain players' standards, cheating); Hengband however has waaay more exotic enemies than vanilla, and it is virtual suicide to engage many of them without any knowledge whatsoever.

                Maybe vanilla wouldn't need full knowledge from probing as Hengband does (although I wouldn't see the problem personally), but it would probably benefit from giving more information than a great ice wyrm has resist cold. Orly. How about splitting the knowledge over 2 or 3 probes, if 1 is too powerful?

                Just my 2˘

                Comment

                • Philip
                  Knight
                  • Jul 2009
                  • 909

                  #9
                  Oh, so that's why no-one probes anymore. Give probing some use. It's not too much a cheat, but maybe you should give monsters cheat_know as well by making them exploit weaknesses as suggested earlier.

                  Comment

                  • Timo Pietilä
                    Prophet
                    • Apr 2007
                    • 4096

                    #10
                    Originally posted by kingvictory2003
                    I don't know the current state of the probing mechanic in vanilla, but if it is still consistent with older versions (pre 3.0) then it only gives you a few tidbits of information. Those few tidbits may give you enough info to save you, but most likely, will not. Hence, IMHO, pretty useless.
                    IIRC probing now reveals pretty much everything if not everything of the monster. At least in 3.1.2 it did reveal everything, not sure if it changed again in 3.2.

                    Comment

                    • Xaxyx
                      Scout
                      • Feb 2010
                      • 37

                      #11
                      Originally posted by buzzkill
                      I've won, and I never used any cheat options or spoilers. It is possible.
                      I acknowledge your assertion and admire your confidence. But I'm sorely tempted to suspect that you may, in fact, be mistaken. I believe that you may have unknowingly or unwittingly used spoilers (and, thus, have cheated). That's because you read this forum.

                      You read this forum, and thus glean information about the game. Information about monsters. Information that, according to the creators of Angband, can and should only be acquired within the confines of the game. Thus you may have gained an in-game advantage via external means. If so, then you are a cheater. Just like me.

                      Unless, of course, you can state with absolute certainty and clarity, that you've never -- NOT ONCE, in your entire Angband career -- acquired any new information on this forum about a monster?

                      How far does this reach, I wonder? You've expanded the discussion beyond just the "know full monster info" flag and into the wider realm of spoilers in general. Did you learn the entire combat system through trial and error? Did you learn the efficacy of various resistances against their appropriate damage types via experimentation? Did you discover the various breakpoints of character stats and blows and shots and what-not by building your own charts, reverse-engineering your own formulae?

                      Which files qualify as "spoilers" and which are merely guides? Is looking at the in-game help file on classes and races equivalent to browsing a spoiler? Is reading the patch log file from version X to version Y a spoiler since it invariably exposes information about the game's inner workings? Where does this end?

                      Greater Basilisks can breathe nexus. If you'd discovered that on your own already, and have memorized the fact, then I envy both your thoroughness and your recall. If not, then I just made you cheat. And that's just plain ridiculous.

                      Comment

                      • buzzkill
                        Prophet
                        • May 2008
                        • 2939

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Timo Pietilä
                        IIRC probing now reveals pretty much everything if not everything of the monster. At least in 3.1.2 it did reveal everything, not sure if it changed again in 3.2.
                        Yeah, IFAIK probing reveals everything. Every melee attack, damage from such attacks, all side effect arising from such attacks. Every breath attack and approx or max damage from breath attacks. Every spell that can be cast and how often. How many HP's and AC and likelihood to hit. EDIT: Oh yeah, and for ALL monster in LOS, not just one.

                        That's all fine if you want to carry a rod of probing and waste a turn using it. I do this quite often. IMO it's too much info not to be considered cheating if you choose to simply know it by default.

                        New players should be clueless. More experienced players have RL memories that can guide them to making logical choices even when facing an unknown enemy. That usually boils down to either probing, taking a chance, or running away.

                        Not knowing is part of the game. In almost every case, maybe even in every case, of not knowing, the game provides an in game way to discover what you need to know (detection/mapping/probing/esp/etc...). Using outside the game help is IMO, even more now than before this thread started, cheating.

                        If you to be PC about it, call it EASY_MODE or BEGINNER_MODE or IM_OMNIPOTENT_BY_RITE_OF_BIRTH, but that's just useless window dressing.
                        www.mediafire.com/buzzkill - Get your 32x32 tiles here. UT32 now compatible Ironband and Quickband 9/6/2012.
                        My banding life on Buzzkill's ladder.

                        Comment

                        • pampl
                          RePosBand maintainer
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 225

                          #13
                          We could solve this problem with new monster flags.. RANDOM_BREATH, RANDOM_LOW_BREATH, RANDOM_HIGH_BREATH. It's not like breath weapons are super thematically consistent anyway (c.f. Greater Basilisks breathing nexus) so I don't think there'd be anything too bad about Great Hell Wyrms being able to breath darkness one game and light the next. It'd sure make probing more useful.

                          Comment

                          • Philip
                            Knight
                            • Jul 2009
                            • 909

                            #14
                            Wait a sec, what this guy wants is affirmation that he's not cheating, and the option is in the wrong place, and that he's using the only option for winning.
                            Yeah, ignore the fact that pretty much everyone here never used the cheat_know option to win first.

                            Comment

                            • Timo Pietilä
                              Prophet
                              • Apr 2007
                              • 4096

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Xaxyx
                              I acknowledge your assertion and admire your confidence. But I'm sorely tempted to suspect that you may, in fact, be mistaken. I believe that you may have unknowingly or unwittingly used spoilers (and, thus, have cheated). That's because you read this forum.
                              I can make that claim. I won when spoilers were still considered as spoilers, and such thing as forum didn't exist and I didn't yet read newsgroup. In old version which is way harder than this current one.

                              It is quite doable. You don't actually need to know what monsters can do as long as you follow few basic principles:

                              1) get main resists (basic 4 & poison)
                              2) be faster than it is or IOW don't allow double-moves.
                              3) read monster description
                              4) have enough HP

                              Following those rules no monster can kill you unless you make some stupid mistake. You learn very fast the rule #1, rest comes naturally with careful playing.

                              Comment

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