Quiver at home?

[PowerDiver]

Here's a specific example using standarts. Imagine that a player collects Cammithrim, Paurhach, Paurnimmen, Pauraegen, and Paurnen and the time comes to prune the home. We go to trouble to refuse to provide spoilers to the player, so continue in the context of assuming the player does not know the whole standart set.

The "obvious" one to save is Cammithrim. The right one to save is Pauraegen. I have used Pauraegen in the endgame multiple times even with mage-casters who lose 25% mana to wear it. I have never managed to use Cammithrim in the endgame for sustain con. Somehow, covering other necessary sustains always ends up covering sustain con.

Is the game improved if someone tosses an endgame item to save something else because he has no way to realize that it is an endgame item?

I can respect someone who takes the opposite side from me on this issue, but I don't see much likelihood I'll change my mind.

[Magnate]

Is the game improved if someone tosses an endgame item to save something else because he has no way to realize that it is an endgame item?

It's not improved, but it's not worsened either. It shouldn't matter, and there shouldn't be a "right" answer to equipment choices all the time. Someone who has dumped all five of those gloves should have plenty of other choices in the endgame (power, combat, thievery, not to mention Cambeleg and Fingolfin).

[Timo Pietilä]

Is the game improved if someone tosses an endgame item to save something else because he has no way to realize that it is an endgame item?

Simple answer is yes. That's one of those "hard choices" I mentioned.

You just don't know which of the possible combinations will be the one you will be using at the end of the game, so you need to make educated guess. Sometimes it works, sometimes you end up with less than optimal gear. But you still have good gear, just not the best. Game can be won without artifacts at all, in fact in recent games I have been using Fury weapons almost exclusively in endgame.

Point for hard choices is not the newbies that are not going to win the game and will not be using the best gear anyway, it is the veterans. To keep game interesting.

You have to throw something away knowing that you might want to use it later. It hurts, but that is a good thing. Tuning and optimizing your gear not having all possibilities in use is a interesting challenge. Choose a route and stick to it.

Like having both Amrod and Amras, and needing to choose which one to toss. That is selection between +2 STR and CON vs +1 speed, INT,WIS and DEX and higher damage.

[pampl]

I don't do level scumming. I'd prefer that made impossible or at least inconvenient beyond tolerance by for some method. That way people would be forced to play with reduced stats sometimes. You can play with reduced stats, just don't let them get too low. If you get them too low then you have something to learn.

Even if town scumming is eliminated somehow (which seems like a big "if" to me) people will still be able to restore their stats with one trip to town most of the time, or all of the time if they're willing to buy a store's inventory out. I don't see how stockpiling restoration at home would make this any worse. I really don't see how stockpiling CCW/phase door/etc would cause problems, especially given that most players are (I assume) in the end game when they finally fill their house and have to choose between stockpiling these items and making room for backup EQ.

I'm not disagreeing with your preference for hard choices, I just don't think home size effects shopping in any important way.

[zaimoni]

I'm not disagreeing with your preference for hard choices, I just don't think home size effects shopping in any important way.

Currently, I generally run of of space in the home around CL 20 and have to stop stockpiling essential-emergency in favor of essential-always use items.

How is that "not affecting shopping in any important way"?

[pampl]

Currently, I generally run of of space in the home around CL 20 and have to stop stockpiling essential-emergency in favor of essential-always use items.

How is that "not affecting shopping in any important way"?

I didn't think anyone relied on the home that heavily. Do you know if that's normal or unique to your playstyle?

[CunningGabe]

I didn't think anyone relied on the home that heavily. Do you know if that's normal or unique to your playstyle?

I probably start juggling the home around that time as well.

[Derakon]

Off the top of my head, here's what I store in the home once it's remotely full:

* !Healing, !*Healing*, !Life
* ?Destruction, ?Teleport Level, ?Banishment, ?Mass Banishment
* _Speed, _Destruction, _Banishment
* Equipment

When I still have plenty of spare space, I occasionally buy up / stash extra consumables (generally ?Recall and _Identify). I'd estimate I run out of room probably around clvl 30-35 or so.

I'll store other stuff in there earlier on, like egos that aren't strictly worse than my current weapon, but generally those gets sold to buy juicy items from the black market.

[Hariolor]

Off the top of my head, here's what I store in the home once it's remotely full:

* !Healing, !*Healing*, !Life
* ?Destruction, ?Teleport Level, ?Banishment, ?Mass Banishment
* _Speed, _Destruction, _Banishment
* Equipment

When I still have plenty of spare space, I occasionally buy up / stash extra consumables (generally ?Recall and _Identify). I'd estimate I run out of room probably around clvl 30-35 or so.

I'll store other stuff in there earlier on, like egos that aren't strictly worse than my current weapon, but generally those gets sold to buy juicy items from the black market.

I'd add ?deep descent to that list - if only because once I'm ready to dive quickly, I can never seem to find any.

I also rely much less heavily on soring staves, prefering ?recharging instead...

That being said, a limited home definitely affects the mid game for me, from about CL25 onward. By then I have to start making decisions about which stockpiles of ego ammo are worth keeping, and whether I'll ever use a given artifact (this is especially true with randarts). By endgame I usually know more or less what my final kit will look like, but there's definitely some sacrifices that have to be made along the way, especially when amulets of thievery and trickery start showing up, as well as big plussed cloaks with good protections on them (shards, chaos, etc). It's always a question of, "will I need that resist/extra con/etc".

While enticing, an unlimited home would make the game slightly easier, in that I'd never have to make those long-term tradeoffs. Probably not significant overall, though.

[Derakon]

Good call; I'd forgotten about Deep Descent. I'll buy any of those I see in stores and save them for when I want to start diving, at which point they get chain-read. Ones I find in the dungeon generally get used in very short order.

[Timo Pietilä]

Off the top of my head, here's what I store in the home once it's remotely full:

* !Healing, !*Healing*, !Life
* ?Destruction, ?Teleport Level, ?Banishment, ?Mass Banishment
* _Speed, _Destruction, _Banishment
* Equipment

When I still have plenty of spare space, I occasionally buy up / stash extra consumables (generally ?Recall and _Identify). I'd estimate I run out of room probably around clvl 30-35 or so.

I add that list ordinary ?teleportation. They are useful, but you wont be using them a lot so what doesn't fit into inventory goes in home. I also keep stack of spellbook 4 at home, because it is not guaranteed in shops. Speed potions at least until I have few items with haste-activation and restore mana with Priests.

That doesn't leave much space for equipment, so something has to go sooner or later. Usually list starts from staves, then teleportation scrolls.

EDIT: typo corrected

[Derakon]

?Teleport and !Speed are two I forgot, thanks. I try to stash all my !Speed for the endgame if possible; fighting Sauron and Morgoth with _Speed is not really feasible. I guess my list wasn't as complete as I'd hoped...

And yeah, there's relatively little room for equipment there. Oh well! That's the cost of being well-prepared in terms of consumables.

[bulian]

Depending on class a few other consumables that may get stored:

!Heroism, !rCold, !rHeat, ?Holy chant, !CCW, !Berserk

Note that the first 5 are infinitely available at the end of the game via store buyout.

[PowerDiver]

You have to throw something away knowing that you might want to use it later. It hurts, but that is a good thing.

You could be right. I would have agreed with you 2 years ago, but I don't today. Perhaps I'll waffle again and agree with you on this again in the future.

[Tiburon Silverflame]

I definitely don't agree. I don't mind a restricted inventory, but forcing those choices in the home, by such a totally artificial mechanism, is not and never will be a good thing.