What else should not be allowed in vaults?

[Lord Tom]

I'm glad this discussion is happening, because I think it's important for TO and summons to be addressed at the same time.

TO as a radius-0 ball, bolt, or both seems fine. Perhaps, though its range should be proportional to the caster/item level and inversely proportional to the target monster's level? So a wand of TO can zap Azog, say 50 squares, but Morgoth only 10, but a level 50 mage could push Morgie 25 squares.

Summons suffer from a bunch of problems which lead players to abuse (SUMMON_HI_DRAGON --> ASC) or simply annoyance (mystic serially summons 75 weak animals that don't carry any loot, making a whole section of the dungeon not worth dealing with). Unlike TO, I don't think summons are too easy or hard, just off.

I'd suggest:
-only monsters with the 'summon special' spell can summon uniques
-summons don't have to have LOS with the summoner, so fighting a summoner around a corner doesn't limit summons
-summons can always push past the summoner (if an ASC fix is deemed necessary)
-summoners can summon a certain total level count of monsters, with group monsters perhaps counted say half; this would generally be based on the summoner's level, though multiplier flags (e.g. SUMMON_DBL, SUMMON_TRIPLE) could be added to beef up eg Q's

Again, most of these aren't harder/easier oriented (apart from the ASC fix), but I think could make summons still dangerous with interesting gameplay, without driving so many players to boring, knee-jerk ASC/TO strats.

[Timo Pietilä]

This is not about game difficulty. Its about the endgame, which has a tendency to become stale and drawn-out. In my humble opinion, nethack got ruined the day they disabled level teleporting while wearing the amulet, but thats another story.

When you have reached a high enough level, maxed important stats and got a good kit, there is no more danger of getting one shot killed. This is as it should be.

Agreed, however I would like to see a bit more "character development" so that a bit more happens with character getting higher level than just increase in HP and maybe for spellcasters some spell gets available. That's the two thing that matters in char development currently. Skills that matter, like stealth, are not increased with clvl.

If you could get ~1000HP with clvl1 warrior you could kill M.

More character skills, less item/stat-based development. A lesser extend of Sangband approach of things.

Things like weapon blows could be dependent of character level. Yes you are dexterous enough to swing a dagger multiple times, but you don't know how so you stab yourself with it if you try. Anybody with martial art training can tell that strength and dexterity alone does not make you a skillful weapon handler. Critical blows could be clvl-based. If you know what you are doing it matters a lot more than just being fast with things. Accuracy gives you ability to hit where you want to hit, but without knowing where to hit that does not help much.

[Derakon]

Hell, you could make everything be level-based. Just multiply every value on equipment by (clvl / 45) or something. Then equipment is still important, but you still need to gain levels. Have different divisors for different stats for different characters, if you want, so warriors get 200% bonuses from STR and CON (i.e. boosts to those stats are multiplied by clvl / 25), mages only get 50% for STR but 200% from INT, etc. The Disgaea series does this, among many other things that help turn the games into more or less pure number porn.

[d_m]

Agreed, however I would like to see a bit more "character development" so that a bit more happens with character getting higher level than just increase in HP and maybe for spellcasters some spell gets available. That's the two thing that matters in char development currently. Skills that matter, like stealth, are not increased with clvl.

I like this idea also.

I think fizzix's plan is a good idea, but I also like the idea of giving each class some interesting moments. I was imagining every 10 levels giving people something, not necessarily as large as the +shots that rangers get, but more like resist-fear that warriors get (or something else).

But I haven't thought about it enough to have a specific plan.

[fizzix]

But I haven't thought about it enough to have a specific plan.

I would look at boring changes such as moving more HP and SP to being level dependent. Even a level dependent floor would be good. There's something off (especially for half casters) where they suddenly go from running out of SP casting detect stairs to having enough to cast Haste Self indefinitely. Often this change is something like 2 !Int.

[Derakon]

I suspect that has more to do with the horribly top-heavy power curve for stat bonuses than anything else. Half-casters tend to start with their casting stats to right below the point at which additional points make a big difference.

[pampl]

I've only played Angband for a few years, so I'm mostly talking out my butt here, but hasn't it always had a power curve like a cliff face? Maybe some people like the aspect of going from zero to hero overnight.

That being said, I'd definitely try a variant that smoothed stat bonuses and made things more class/race dependent and less stat dependent. I've always liked variants that give stat gain on level up so presumably I'd like even more a variant where you don't need the stat gain to get a noticeable increase in power.