Ridiculous death due, in my opinion, to flawed design.

[HailEris]

I think its tempting to blame YASD on bad design ( I know I have before), but I dont think the writer of this thread has much of a leg to stand on i mean, if he got one-hitted by a yeek or a kobold or something sure, but come on it was the freaking lernaean hydra (which is even deadly poisonous in the myth , so its not even like an inside joke or something only a vet would catch) . Complaining about it seems about as silly as decking a grizzly IRL and then bitching @ god when you get mauled .

[ehuangsan]

This reminds my of one monster I made on purpose to indicate that instadeath was definitely a possibility in Animeband. Perhaps a variation of this unique should be put into V? Death has -10 to speed, so you really have no excuse for getting killed by him, especially since he can't be summoned. He also has an ALWAYS_HIT flag so that he will never miss if he gets a melee chance on you....which would really be your own damn fault.
LOSE_INT is there so if he hits you, the dialog would go:
"Death hits you."
"You die."
"You feel very stupid."

N:545: Death
G:W: D
I:100:100d100:100:140:0
W:26:5:0:83000
B:HIT:LOSE_INT:99d99
B:TOUCH:LOSE_INT:99d99
F:UNIQUE | MALE |
F:FORCE_SLEEP | FORCE_MAXHP | ALWAYS_HIT |
F:ESCORT | ESCORTS | SMART |
F:ONLY_ITEM | DROP_2D2 | DROP_3D2 | DROP_4D2 | DROP_GOOD | DROP_GREAT |
F:OPEN_DOOR | BASH_DOOR | POWERFUL | MOVE_BODY |
F:EVIL | UNDEAD | RESPAWN | PASS_WALL | INVISIBLE |
F:IM_FIRE | IM_ELEC | NO_CONF | NO_SLEEP | NO_SUMMON | MUTODORI | NO_DUST |
S:1_IN_2 |
S:HOLD | BLIND | CONF | SCARE | SLOW | CAUSE_4
S:S_SPIDER | S_WRAITH | DRAIN_METER | DRAIN_MANA | TELE_TO |
O:Maintainer feeling evil
D:The bane of all creatures since the beginning of time, Death is an evil
D: nihilist and should be avoided at all costs. Death smiteth with powerful
D: blows and all fear the touch of Death. He may even be lurking just around
D: the corner...

[Hariolor]

Funny thing I've noticed:

I have been playing more after a period away from the game to focus on IRL responsibilities, as such I am dying a lot more than I had been due to inattention and impatience. After my last game where I found Balance DSM at CL5 and then died to hunger because I let my light source run out, I contemplated turning on "cheat death" because those dumb mistakes are so frustrating and should be so easily avoided.

But I can't bring myself to do it. Strategy games don't punish save-scumming because the fun is in trying different strategies and tactics. Sims don't punish save scumming because the fun is in building. In fact, in most genres of games, the win condition is orthagonal to whether save-scumming is abusive, because the game is built around mastering some combination of reflexes and/or strategic thinking.

Roguelikes are sort of unique in that they do not require any reflexes whatsoever, and are mostly very very simple in terms of complexity. The strategy that has to be learned to win is one of patience, discipline, and persistence. Turning on "cheat death", or even save scumming, completely neuters the game because it allows the player to be reckless, which really eliminates the only strategic elements that must be mastered.

Obviously, YMMV, but a game that requires only being patient enough to be repeatedly rewarded by an RNG while avoiding the crap it throws at you almost necessarily becomes less and less interesting as risk is reduced.

[ThunderToads]

Ironically, this thread has gotten me back into playing the game after a two month absence.

That's awesome, not least 'cause it means means the troll failed miserably.

[Feloniousmonk]

Ironically, this thread has gotten me back into playing the game after a two month absence.

[Rizwan]

I can think of a few more-

-Quivers can hold different types of ammo, but after 99 they will take up more inventory slots
...

-Can't keep track of all the information on the screen? You can add extra windows to show previous messages, items on the floor, monsters present. Set these up from the '=' menu.

Obviously, get too big a list of these and new players will tune out. I know this would be a lot of work, but something like Crawl's tutorial mode would be fantastic. Contextually-appropriate hints and instructions, for example dealing with stores, first entering the dungeon, level feelings, running, picking up items, spells, etc.

I think only one is needed
MONSTERS CAN INSTA-KILL YOU
(caps for emphasis only)

[ewert]

The manual is what you read when you wish you were playing the game but can't. Either because it's still installing, you're waiting for your computer to boot, you're at a loading screen, or in the WC. In game manuals don't satisfy that requirement.

True, especially the WC part. Though I break that rule myself all the time, I'm a pre-planner kind of gamer so heck, I may make spreadsheet efficiency calculations and strategy plans before even beginning to play ...

Heavily hyperlinked stuff like the CIV IV civelopedia can generate the wiki walk effect when you have to go into them to look something up and wind up reading a large, meandering chunk, but even then the chances of someone reading the whole thing are slim.

I read Civ V civilopedia in-game top to bottom except skipped military units ... =P

What might help would be to give full monster knowledge for low level stuff at game start and declining levels through stat gain. That would get people used to looking at monsters because it wouldn't be a complete waste of time for a new player who doesn't yet have a developed monster memory.

Or huge blaring signs in a single page "read this if new to game" where it says that big ugly monsters reside in the dungeon who may kill unwary and unprepared players in a single turn. And to suggest that if you are not the kind of player who can handle "hardcore" mode in Diablo for example, turn on cheat-death and know-monsterinfo until you have learned the game somewhat ...

[Atarlost]

The manual is what you read when you wish you were playing the game but can't. Either because it's still installing, you're waiting for your computer to boot, you're at a loading screen, or in the WC. In game manuals don't satisfy that requirement.

Heavily hyperlinked stuff like the CIV IV civelopedia can generate the wiki walk effect when you have to go into them to look something up and wind up reading a large, meandering chunk, but even then the chances of someone reading the whole thing are slim.

What might help would be to give full monster knowledge for low level stuff at game start and declining levels through stat gain. That would get people used to looking at monsters because it wouldn't be a complete waste of time for a new player who doesn't yet have a developed monster memory.

The other thing that would help would be some sort of new game plus consolation prize. It's the complete lack of progress that turned me off Angband for several years the first time I tried it.

[Atarlost]

The difference between Angband and solitaire is that no solitaire spread takes twenty hours to complete.

I know people who play solitaire for two reasons. Either because it's quick or because it's nonviolent, noncompetitive, and non-time-sensitive. Angband falls into neither category.

[Zyphyr]

Hm. This might be the fundamental difference between us old veterans and new younger players. I'm used to read through manuals, fast skimming reading if nothing else. It is also pretty much requirement for my job. I didn't think that people don't want to read manuals, I just thought they don't think reading it would be useful.

Many games these days come with essentially useless manuals. I've seen a few which were 2 pages of "How to Install the Game", a 1 page quick-reference on the controls, and the rest backstory for the game. I've also seen manuals that were clearly written around an early version of the game and the game had undergone major alterations before release, rendering muh of the content in the manual either incorrect or irrelevant. It really isn't surprising that people don't bother reading manuals.

[Timo Pietilä]

Timo: the fundamental problem with telling newbies to read the help files is that nobody wants to read help files. Yes, they have to read the command descriptions; no, they're not going to read anything more than that if they can possibly get away with it. This has nothing to do with how good the help files are and everything to do with it being more fun to learn by playing than to learn by reading.

Hm. This might be the fundamental difference between us old veterans and new younger players. I'm used to read through manuals, fast skimming reading if nothing else. It is also pretty much requirement for my job. I didn't think that people don't want to read manuals, I just thought they don't think reading it would be useful.

[Magnate]

I can think of a few more-

-Quivers can hold different types of ammo, but after 99 they will take up more inventory slots
-Many items are bad, but few are cursed to the point of needing magic to remove them.
-Congratulations on finding a nice item! if you don't want to accidentally sell, drop, or destroy it, consider inscribing it (the '{' command) with !s!d!k
-A bigger weapon isn't always better- make sure to check your blows per round using 'I'nspect
-Can't keep track of all the information on the screen? You can add extra windows to show previous messages, items on the floor, monsters present. Set these up from the '=' menu.

Obviously, get too big a list of these and new players will tune out. I know this would be a lot of work, but something like Crawl's tutorial mode would be fantastic. Contextually-appropriate hints and instructions, for example dealing with stores, first entering the dungeon, level feelings, running, picking up items, spells, etc.

Guys, this is great stuff. I don't know anyone who wants to code any kind of hint or rumour function, but if someone gathers these together and PMs me (I had long since stopped reading this thread - I just happened to have an idle moment) I'll stick them in my docs branch as "hints.txt" which we could ship with 3.2 and have available from the top-level ? menu.

It's a start, at least.

[bio_hazard]

I can think of a few more-

-Quivers can hold different types of ammo, but after 99 they will take up more inventory slots
-Many items are bad, but few are cursed to the point of needing magic to remove them.
-Congratulations on finding a nice item! if you don't want to accidentally sell, drop, or destroy it, consider inscribing it (the '{' command) with !s!d!k
-A bigger weapon isn't always better- make sure to check your blows per round using 'I'nspect
-Can't keep track of all the information on the screen? You can add extra windows to show previous messages, items on the floor, monsters present. Set these up from the '=' menu.

Obviously, get too big a list of these and new players will tune out. I know this would be a lot of work, but something like Crawl's tutorial mode would be fantastic. Contextually-appropriate hints and instructions, for example dealing with stores, first entering the dungeon, level feelings, running, picking up items, spells, etc.

[Derakon]

Timo: the fundamental problem with telling newbies to read the help files is that nobody wants to read help files. Yes, they have to read the command descriptions; no, they're not going to read anything more than that if they can possibly get away with it. This has nothing to do with how good the help files are and everything to do with it being more fun to learn by playing than to learn by reading. All of the one-off tips that Civilization shows you during worldgen are also in the manual, but I guarantee that 90% of players, if not more, learn them first from the tips, not the manual.

The tips that I'd envision being in such a system would focus on minor spoilers and tactical advice. Things like:

* Cure Critical Wounds potions also cure blindness and confusion. Carry lots; they're cheap.
* Potions of Heroism will keep you from being frightened.
* Staves of Teleport can be used even when confused or blinded.
* Breath attacks deal 1/3rd the monster's current HP in damage, up to 1600 for fire/cold/acid/electricity and 800 for poison.
* Resistance cuts damage to 1/3rd for fire/cold/acid/electricity/poison, but are less effective for other elements.
* Resistances on your gear stack with temporary resistances from spells and items.
* Never underestimate the value of Constitution. Hitpoints keep you alive.
* Rods of Probing can tell you about a monster's abilities.

You get the idea. Some of this stuff is spelled out in item descriptions, but players don't realize their significance. Some of it isn't spelled out anywhere in the help. It's all useful.

[Timo Pietilä]

Don't staves of probing already do LoS ... or was that in a variant.

Personally, since monster memory exists and is stored in savefile (which I start new one very often), I just use cheat_knowmonsterinfo. You use spoilers: you are "cheating". You play long time but don't save the savefile: you are missing on a feature of the game. So, just use the know all info option ...

That's BTW one thing that I would definitely like to have outside of savefile. I don't use cheat_knowmonsterinfo or spoilers, so I really hate to use new savefile. Before 3.something that broke the savefile compatibility I had used same savefile for something like 15 years. It was rather complete (Your ancestors have killed 32579 snagas and 2 of your ancestors have been killed by it. Something like that)