Experimenting with no-egos

[bron]

In the thread http://angband.oook.cz/forum/showthread.php?t=3475 it was suggested that it might be possible to win not merely without artifacts, but also without ego items. I was pretty skeptical of this, mostly because there are only 2 ring slots. I have looked at and experimented with this during the last month, and have decided that it may in fact be just barely possible. There are 2 important things I didn't previously realize that contribute to this: (1) With a 100% saving throw, you do not require a source of Free Action. All melee attacks and spells that paralyze allow a saving throw. You can still get paralyzed by traps, but it is possible to avoid that. (2) The speed boost from Mushrooms of Terror stacks with other temporary speed boosts. And while you can't melee while terrorized, you can still cast spells. This means you can get +19 speed with a +4 Amulet of Trickery, Haste Self, and Mushroom of Terror, which in turn means that you can find a big enough speed ring in finite time.

I believe that the character with the best chance is a Mage, due to the Resistance and Haste Self spells, and a High Elf due to their See Invisible ability, their high intrinsic stats, and the fact they can reach 100% saving throw. A Dwarf Priest might work if you could get some sort of Resistance, but I don't think the character is likely to be able to survive to be able to find an Amulet of Resistance at its normal depth, which means you need to find it (or MHDSM or PDSM) as an out-of-depth Great Item. Which of course is possible, but likely to require 100s of hours of play.

I have started running a character for real to see how it goes. The only source change (v3.1.2v2) I made was to have make_ego_item just return 0 immediately. I set birth_no_artifacts, and will choose not to use the ammo branding spell in Tensors. Wish me luck.

[Tiburon Silverflame]

How are you going to manage resistances?

[Derakon]

Power DSM has everything except blindness, nether, nexus, and fear. You should be able to play carefully (with plentiful !CCW, of course) and cope with blinding, and the others are not really significant.

[Sirridan]

Nexus can be swapped for trickery. Blindness can be nixed by dwarf, or !ccw. Nether isn't a big deal if you skip Az and Char.

[bron]

Power DSM has everything except blindness, nether, nexus, and fear

That is certainly true, but how exactly do you propose that I manage to find PDSM ? In all of my years of playing, I have encountered PDSM exactly twice. If the answer is "just stay on level 30 until some appears," I don't consider that acceptable.

As to dealing with resistances, for the first 30 levels one can just do without; for a brief time one can wear rings of heat/cold, amulet of lightning, and fill all the armor slots for acid. Later, you use the spell "Resistance," and eventually work up to an Amulet of Resistance and wear Green Dragon Scale Mail. I never said it would be easy, I only said it seems like it should be just barely possible..

[Derakon]

Critical resistances, in my opinion, are the basic 4, confusion, and free action. Everything else is a nice-to-have; you just have to be increasingly paranoid to go without. The basic 4 are covered by the Resistance spell, confusion by Amulets of the Magi, Bronze DSM, or Power DSM, and free action by a perfect saving throw.

My big question is, where are you going to get the hitpoints to survive in the depths? A high-elf mage is not going to have a very high CON or a good hitdie, and CON boosts are going to be tricky to find...

[bron]

where are you going to get the hitpoints to survive in the depths? A high-elf mage is not going to have a very high CON or a good hitdie, and CON boosts are going to be tricky to find...

I agree with you about the CON boosts. Except for the plural. CON rings are the ONLY source of +CON available with no artifacts/egos.

The basic plan is to get to stat gain (not really all that much different than a standard game). Gradually creep down to level 40 and go no lower than that until CON is maxed and I have a copy of Scarabtarices; this will take a long time. Then creep down to level 60, and try to stay there (which is above the Wyrms) until I get a 100% saving throw, which I think is clvl 49. This will take a *really* long time. With luck, long enough that I find a Resistance Amulet (a level 70 item: since "good" items get a 10 level boost, there is a legitimate chance of finding one on level 60) and a suit of Green Dragon Scale Mail. And hopefully a Bronze DSM as a swap item. A level 50 High Elf Mage with a +6 Con ring will have somewhere in the neighborhood of 650 HP. That is reeeeally thin to face Morgoth, but seems to be sufficient for other baddies. One does have to swallow one's pride and make extensive use of ASC's and abuse Runes like crazy. And run away a lot.

[Timo Pietilä]

I agree with you about the CON boosts. Except for the plural. CON rings are the ONLY source of +CON available with no artifacts/egos.

Play Dwarf priest. Dwarf has second best hit die and has resist blindness. Basic4, while being important, are not that important if you choose your fights and use swaps. MHDSM would solve that problem nicely.

I wonder if you could have high enough HP with Dwarf warrior to survive depths without using any spells.

[Timo Pietilä]

Critical resistances, in my opinion, are the basic 4, confusion, and free action. Everything else is a nice-to-have; you just have to be increasingly paranoid to go without. The basic 4 are covered by the Resistance spell, confusion by Amulets of the Magi, Bronze DSM, or Power DSM, and free action by a perfect saving throw.

My big question is, where are you going to get the hitpoints to survive in the depths? A high-elf mage is not going to have a very high CON or a good hitdie, and CON boosts are going to be tricky to find...

When I played this I used Dwarf Priest. Dwarf has second best hit die, has CON bonus and class doesn't have CON penalty and actually gives a small boost / level for hit die. Much better than mage for that. Also very good set of spells (see invisible by spell) for survival.

You need to have elec-resist from items, resist heat and cold spell covers three of the four of basic4 and acid gets halved by items. DSM and ring takes care of that. Branding rings are very useful with big-dice weapons in this scenario. Trickery for nexus and poison, Magi for conf and ESP for telepathy. WIS 18/150 gives 1% failure in spells.

Something like this:

  [Angband 3.1.2 (r1971) Character Dump]

 Name   Arevor                                   Self  RB  CB  EB   Best
 Sex    Male         Age             44   STR! 18/100  +2  -1  +0 18/110
 Race   Dwarf        Height          46   INT! 18/100  -3  -3  +0  18/40
 Class  Priest       Weight         146   WIS! 18/100  +2  +3  +0 18/150
 Title  Patriarch    Social   Respected   DEX! 18/100  -2  -1  +0  18/70
 HP     855/855      Maximize         Y   CON! 18/100  +2  +0  +6 18/180
 SP     319/319                           CHR! 18/100  -3  +2  +0  18/90

 Level               50   Armor    [55,+62]     Saving Throw        100%
 Cur Exp       99999999   Fight    (+8,+10)     Stealth             Fair
 Max Exp       99999999   Melee   (+18,+20)     Fighting          Superb
 Adv Exp       ********   Shoot   (+18,+10)     Shooting          Superb
 MaxDepth  6350' (L127)   Blows      2/turn     Disarming            67%
 Game Turns         814   Shots      1/turn     Magic Device          92
 Player Turns       230   Infra       50 ft     Perception        1 in 7
 Active Turns       137   Speed          12     Searching            48%
 Gold         200000000   Burden  186.3 lbs

 You are the only child of a Dwarven Prison Guard.  You are a credit to
 the family.  You have dark brown eyes, straight black hair, a three
 foot beard, and a dark complexion.


rAcid:......+...... rConf:.............
rElec:......+...... Sound:.............
rFire:......+...... Shard:.............
rCold:......+...... Nexus:.............
rPois:......+...... Nethr:.............
rFear:............. Chaos:.............
rLite:............. Disen:.............
rDark:............. S.Dig:.............
rBlnd:............+ Feath:.............

Light:............. Aggrv:.............
Regen:............. Stea.:.......+.....
  ESP:....+........ Sear.:....+........
Invis:............. Infra:............+
FrAct:............. Tunn.:+...........+
HLife:............. Speed:..+..........
ImpHP:............. Blows:.............
ImpSP:............. Shots:.............
 Fear:............. Might:.............


  [Character Equipment]

a) a Mattock (1d8) (+10,+10) (+3)
     +3 tunneling.
     
     Combat info:
     2 blows/round.
     With an additional 4 strength and 0 dex you would get 3 blows
     With an additional 0 strength and 3 dex you would get 3 blows
     Average damage/hit: 26.5.
     
b) a Heavy Crossbow (x4) (+10,+10)
c) a Ring of Speed (+13)
     +13 speed.
     
d) a Ring of Constitution (+6)
     +6 constitution.
     Sustains constitution.
     
e) an Amulet of ESP (+5)
     +25% to searching.
     Cannot be harmed by acid, electricity, fire, cold.
     Grants telepathy.  
     
f) a Lantern (7499 turns)
     Cannot be harmed by fire.
     
     Radius 2 light.
g) Multi-Hued Dragon Scale Mail (-2) [30,+10]
     Provides resistance to acid, lightning, fire, cold, poison.
     Cannot be harmed by acid, electricity, fire, cold.
     
h) an Elven Cloak [6,+10] (+2 stealth)
     +2 stealth.
     
i) a Mithril Shield [10,+13]
     Cannot be harmed by acid.
     
j) a Jewel Encrusted Crown [0,+10]
     Cannot be harmed by acid.
     
k) a Set of Caestus (+0,+3) [2,+10]
l) a Pair of Mithril Shod Boots [7,+6]
     Cannot be harmed by acid.
     


  [Character Quiver]

n) 30 Mithril Bolts (3d5) (+4,+4)
     Cannot be harmed by acid, fire.
     
     Combat info:
     Hits targets up to 140 feet away.
     Average damage/hit: 94.7.
     25% chance of breaking upon contact.
     
o) (nothing)
p) (nothing)
q) (nothing)
r) (nothing)
s) (nothing)
t) (nothing)
u) (nothing)
v) (nothing)
w) (nothing)


  [Character Inventory]

a) 2 Holy Books of Prayers [Words of Wisdom]
b) 2 Holy Books of Prayers [Chants and Blessings]
c) 2 Holy Books of Prayers [Exorcism and Dispelling]
d) a Holy Book of Prayers [Ethereal Openings]
     Cannot be harmed by acid, electricity, fire, cold.
     
e) a Holy Book of Prayers [Godly Insights]
     Cannot be harmed by acid, electricity, fire, cold.
     
f) a Holy Book of Prayers [Purifications and Healing]
     Cannot be harmed by acid, electricity, fire, cold.
     
g) a Holy Book of Prayers [Holy Infusions]
     Cannot be harmed by acid, electricity, fire, cold.
     
h) a Holy Book of Prayers [Wrath of God]
     Cannot be harmed by acid, electricity, fire, cold.
     
i) 30 Potions of Cure Critical Wounds
     
j) 10 Potions of Healing
     
k) 10 Potions of *Healing*
     
     It can be thrown at creatures with damaging effect.
     
l) 10 Potions of Life
     It can be thrown at creatures with damaging effect.
     
m) 20 Potions of Restore Mana
n) 30 Scrolls of Phase Door
o) 4 Rods of Speed
     Cannot be harmed by electricity.
     
p) a Ring of Speed (+13)
     +13 speed.
     
q) an Amulet of the Magi [+10] (+4)
     +4 intelligence.
     +20% to searching.
     Provides resistance to confusion.
     Cannot be harmed by acid, electricity, fire, cold.
     Sustains intelligence.
     Prevents paralysis.  Grants the ability to see invisible things.  
     
r) an Amulet of Weaponmastery (+5,+5) (+3)
     +3 strength.
     Provides resistance to fear, disenchantment.
     Sustains strength, constitution.
     Prevents paralysis.  
     
s) an Amulet of Trickery (+4)
     +4 dexterity, stealth, infravision, speed.
     +20% to searching.
     Provides resistance to poison, nexus.
     Sustains dexterity.

Digger as weapon because mattock has adequate 1d8 dice, doesn't cause penalty and you need to do your killings mainly from distance with spells and xbow anyway.

[bron]

Play Dwarf priest. Dwarf has second best hit die and has resist blindness. Basic4, while being important, are not that important if you choose your fights and use swaps. MHDSM would solve that problem nicely.

Dwarf Priest is clearly the other choice (in my view, the second choice; Timo clearly disagrees about the order). As I said in the original post on this thread, *if* you can find some form of resistance, then the Dwarf is playable (probably superior). In my experimenting with it however, I came to doubt the ability of the priest to survive levels 40-70 (or at least 60) at which point you can start finding the Amulets you need. I agree that "MHDSM would solve that problem nicely," but since MHDSM is a rarity 3, level 90 item, you are unlikely to be able to find one above level 80 without playing for 100s and 100s of hours. High Elf Mage seems more likely to be able to survive the middle game and actually start finding the objects needed.

Timo - your r.g.r.a posting from 5 years ago shows your Dwarf Priest character at stat-gain, but that seems to be the last post in the thread. How much farther did you get?

[Timo Pietilä]

Timo - your r.g.r.a posting from 5 years ago shows your Dwarf Priest character at stat-gain, but that seems to be the last post in the thread. How much farther did you get?

It's still alive. Just suspended. I got too attached to it and fear for it's life started to feel a bit too real. Also that was much older version of angband, so it wouldn't be quite as hard now than it was back then.

Problem with egoless priest is not lack of basic four, it is lack of detection until you find GI or ESP. Hounds (which were way too common then) are major threat if you can't detect them. So IIRC it was suspended in situation where I'm already quite deep for my equipment and ability to kill things lacking both GI and ESP. Scary. Very scary. And that kind of careful playing was starting to get boring while being scary at the same time. Boredom and lack of survivability is not a good combination.

[UniqueName]

Trying with a High-Elf Ranger. Unfortunately archery is slightly nerfed from 3.0.6 with a max range of 8? Branding rings will be a benefit if I ever find one. I also believe Branding spells should be allowed. Unfortunately, I looked at my life rating and it's 93.3% which is quite unlucky. If I understand the t-dist calculator correctly there is only a 14% chance of this happening.

Gold is a problem. I didn't change the code to prevent egos and am willing to sell them but this will hurt me later because ego items could have been high plus good items.

[Timo Pietilä]

Unfortunately, I looked at my life rating and it's 93.3% which is quite unlucky. If I understand the t-dist calculator correctly there is only a 14% chance of this happening.

Life rating? t-dist calculator?

[PowerDiver]

Trying with a High-Elf Ranger. Unfortunately archery is slightly nerfed from 3.0.6 with a max range of 8? Branding rings will be a benefit if I ever find one. I also believe Branding spells should be allowed. Unfortunately, I looked at my life rating and it's 93.3% which is quite unlucky. If I understand the t-dist calculator correctly there is only a 14% chance of this happening.

Gold is a problem. I didn't change the code to prevent egos and am willing to sell them but this will hurt me later because ego items could have been high plus good items.

I disagree. No egos should mean no egos, and branded or dropped items are still egos. Nevertheless, I forgot and branded some arrows in a recent attempt.

The main point of weapons and non-DSM armor is to sell them. By the end, I could not devote even a single slot to the quiver, so even a high-plus launcher wasn't useful. Obviously that will be different for a ranger. I decided to keep best BoC and elven cloak, and lightish armor preferring those with IGNORE_ACID.

Max range on archery is something like 8 + 2 * mult I think in the nightlies. Even a shortbow should shoot further than 8 squares. It is possible throwing is capped lower.

My question is whether to relax personal restrictions such as no use of mass banish on vaults. I'm pretty sure that I will allow myself the create doors spell as necessary vs M. If the game is hard enough to require breaking one personal rule should you just view it as a comp and abuse whatever is abusable?

My best attempt is http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=10574.

[UniqueName]

Life rating is predetermined max hps. For a ranger mean max hp is 381.5(14 + 7.5*49). My actual max is 354. One benefit of Ranger over Priest is an extra 25 hp without =CON which is wiped out by my "unlucky" hp rolls. T-distribution, I think...is a formula that an be used to find cumulative probabilities based on standard deviation. I have no idea if it's the correct or even easiest one though . 14% seems to match empirical evidence though.