New spell lists

[miyazaki]

Hi all,

I am not a programmer, but I really wanted to help the development process of Angband. I started looking through the files to see if there was something that I could/wanted to modify. I noticed that, though convoluted, I could change the spell lists (something that I have seen talked about a number of times on this site) and decided to take a run at it.

I have been around long enough to know the arguments against doing this: that spell lists are broken, that classes need to be rebalanced, that this spell or that is essential. But I think that with all the recent changes, especially to consumable rates, that this is a good time to try some new spell lists for the classes.

Effectively, all classes have lost spells. Some just a few (mages), some a lot (rangers). I think there is much more differentiation between classes and the changes will forces players to use more items from the dungeon (both good things).

Guiding principles of each class spell list:

Mage: powerful, offensive magic
Ranger: supplementary, nature-based, protective magic
Rogue: detection and trickery magic
Priest: healing and anti-evil magic
Paladin: minor healing and buffing magic

It won't be perfect, but I hope that people will try the new lists out and give feedback. Even if they are not used officially, they can give some insight into how the classes can develop in the future.

I have included a table of the changes as well as the p_class file that can be dropped right into the angband directory to make the changes.

[Antoine]

Looks very promising

A.

[buzzkill]

If I'm reading that chart right, it seems that Bless, Chant and Prayer have been taken away from priests. I was thinking it might be nice to replace some or all of those with an AC buffing or hold life spell. I realize it's beyond the scope of altering the edit files, just throwing it out there.

[Timo Pietilä]

Hi all,

I have included a table of the changes as well as the p_class file that can be dropped right into the angband directory to make the changes.

Looks like paladin loses his only detection spell until finding Godly Insights (so basically paladin is warrior until that), and priest loses resist heat and cold which feels wrong. Also OoD manacost has been raised which feels wrong (make it deeper instead), and detection has now huge manacost, which only makes priest and paladin to rest more and play slower. Make clairvoyance cost a lot more, but leave detection manacost as it is.

Mage doesn't get resistance but Ranger and Rogue do? That should be other way around. Ranger loses all detections? That's serious crippling. You make ranger basically a archer-class (warrior with good missile weapon skill) by that change.

How about making Ranger use priest book instead? Minor healings and buffings from that, "detect evil" feels right for Ranger, though detect monsters is even more in theme. No orb or high-level spells at all IE no books 7,8 and 9 at all.

I would also like to swap books 5 and 6 in priest lists and move detect monsters to Beginners Handbook as paladin/ranger only spell. Detection is a game changer for priests currently (maybe deny it from paladin/ranger), and lack of that makes stat-gain depths a real slowdown because (mainly) of hounds. Swapping those two books would make game a bit smoother (no danger, danger, danger, near miss, GI, dive, dive, dive, kill Morgoth)

Rogue seem to retain satisfy hunger while everyone else loses it. Bug? Also loses light room which is one of the main utility spells. Somehow rogue losing utility spells feels wrong.

Changing which spell is in which book in which order requires editing spell.txt.

(BTW. it looks like you are using old edit-files. No "reveal monsters" for example)

[PowerDiver]

Mage: powerful, offensive magic
Ranger: supplementary, nature-based, protective magic
Rogue: detection and trickery magic
Priest: healing and anti-evil magic
Paladin: minor healing and buffing magic

IMO priests and mages should get all spells in their realms. In particular, priests require buffing magic. They need buffs just to break even. If you take that away, they need to have their hit rolls increased to compensate.

[Derakon]

Yeah, priests are completely hopeless in melee until they pass stat-gain, and melee is their primary damage source until post-stat-gain as well as OoD is too expensive/failure-prone.

[bebo]

IMO priests and mages should get all spells in their realms.

This.

Rogues feel pretty good at the moment to me, having detect treasure as a spell is an absolutely huge advantage over all other classes, so i don't know how making it available to mages might change things though.

And as i already stated in the (almost countless) threads in the past about spell list changes, i fell the branding and enchanting spells should be altogether removed. As the fact that all of the various bless spells could be merged into one with clvl dependent duration. And many more suggestions, which i'm too tired to think about atm...

I'm totally in favour of making some substantial changes to rangers though, they don't feel that distinctive to me right now, with the exception of the extra shots bonus which is way overpowered anyway i think.

[miyazaki]

You have touched on a lot of the points that I considered while coming up with this scheme.

Looks like paladin loses his only detection spell until finding Godly Insights (so basically paladin is warrior until that), and priest loses resist heat and cold which feels wrong. Also OoD manacost has been raised which feels wrong (make it deeper instead), and detection has now huge manacost, which only makes priest and paladin to rest more and play slower. Make clairvoyance cost a lot more, but leave detection manacost as it is.

Basically, a paladin is a warrior. Except that he uses powers from his deity to inflict damage rather than brute strength. I would be happy if all his detection abilities were removed.

OoD has been long discussed as overpowered on this forum. I think that it should be nerfed by reducing the damage/making it effective only on evil creatures/changing from ball to bolt. I can't do this, so I wanted a way to ween priests off of it being their only major source of damage.

Mage doesn't get resistance but Ranger and Rogue do? That should be other way around. Ranger loses all detections? That's serious crippling. You make ranger basically a archer-class (warrior with good missile weapon skill) by that change.

Exactly what I wanted. Warriors do fine without detection. Rangers will as well.

How about making Ranger use priest book instead? Minor healings and buffings from that, "detect evil" feels right for Ranger, though detect monsters is even more in theme. No orb or high-level spells at all IE no books 7,8 and 9 at all.

I agree, though I would rather make them use spells from both realms. Jack of all trades, master of none. But couldn't do this with the current set-up, so I decided to try and make it work with the magic side.

I would also like to swap books 5 and 6 in priest lists and move detect monsters to Beginners Handbook as paladin/ranger only spell. Detection is a game changer for priests currently (maybe deny it from paladin/ranger), and lack of that makes stat-gain depths a real slowdown because (mainly) of hounds. Swapping those two books would make game a bit smoother (no danger, danger, danger, near miss, GI, dive, dive, dive, kill Morgoth)

Hounds have been nerfed to the point that detection is no longer critical. I thought about rearranging spells in the books, but decided that just changing the classes would be enough change for people to handle!

Rogue seem to retain satisfy hunger while everyone else loses it. Bug? Also loses light room which is one of the main utility spells. Somehow rogue losing utility spells feels wrong.

I was convinced by the discussion in this thread that not all magic users should have satisfy hunger in their arsenal.

I think that a rogue walking around the dungeon lighting up every room feels wrong... They should be stealthy, relying on cunning and guile. I would rather see them get extra infravision instead.

(BTW. it looks like you are using old edit-files. No "reveal monsters" for example)

It was for the table. It was based on old spoiler files. The p-class file was recent.

[PowerDiver]

Rogues feel pretty good at the moment to me, having detect treasure as a spell is an absolutely huge advantage over all other classes, so i don't know how making it available to mages might change things though.

Rogues get dObj at CL12 and mages get detect enchantment at CL30. It is a difference, but not a big deal.

[bebo]

Rogues get dObj at CL12 and mages get detect enchantment at CL30. It is a difference, but not a big deal.

Actually I quite disagree here.

Based of course on my playing style, by clvl30 i have no need for the (costly) spell since i always carry a nice stack of -DetectTreasure, which i will throw away only when i reach high sp thresholds. In the early levels on the other hand barring huge amounts of scrolls in the shop i always lack sufficient means of object detection. But i freely admit that i compulsively use it whenever i can , so my point of view may be a bit biased.

Also having early access gives a more noticeable boost to divers, making early relevant item finding a lot easier.

[Timo Pietilä]

You have touched on a lot of the points that I considered while coming up with this scheme.

I disagree strongly about detection changes. Very strongly. IMO detections are pretty much only reason to keep magic books for ranger and paladin (and rogue), everything else is something that can be easily replaced by items for them except maybe haste. If you remove detections you have basically three warrior-classes, rogue and two spellcasters. Not good.

Considering Ranger:

Magic for Beginners: -> maybe keep for light area spell. Or not.

c) Phase Door -> Scrolls of phase door 0% failure
d) Light Area -> rods of illumination, maybe keep for this, maybe not
f) CLW -> CCW potions 0% failure

Conjurings and Tricks: -> Junk.

d) Cure Poison -> CCW potions 0% failure
f) Teleport Self -> Scrolls and staves.
g) Spear of Light -> not needed, rods of light.

Incantations and Illusions: -> Junk, maybe keep for ID late in game.

b) Lesser Recharging -> Not needed.
c) Turn Stone to Mud -> Not needed
f) Identify -> good to have, but not needed, scrolls, staves.
g) Detect Invisible -> Hey! One useless detection.

Sorcery and Evocations: -> keep for haste.

b) Teleport Other -> wands, rods.
c) Haste Self -> staves, rods, potions.

Resistances of Scarabtarices: Consider if this is worth a slot. Probably not.

a) Resist Cold -> not needed
b) Resist Fire -> not needed
c) Resist Poison -> not needed
d) Resistance -> useful, unless you have Colluin.
e) Shield -> not needed.

Raal's Tome of Destruction: -> junk

(nothing)

Mordenkainen's Escapes: Not worth a slot once you have rod.

c) Teleport Level -> not needed
d) Word of Recall -> scrolls, rods
e) Rune of Protection -> not needed

Tenser's Transformation: keep for buffing and greater recharge.

a) Heroism -> nice
b) Berserker -> nice
c) Enchant Armor -> not needed
d) Enchant Weapon -> not needed
e) Greater Recharging -> nice

Kelek's Grimoire of Power: junk

a) Earthquake -> not needed

So you will have Ranger that has Sorcery and Evocations for haste and Tenser's Transformation for buffing and greater recharge. Two books. There is no reason to keep anything else. You could as well remove every spell from them and make them proper archer class.

Paladin isn't quite as bad, but knowing where your opponents are is a vital part of the game so until paladin gets rods of detection or GI he is a bit weaker than warrior. You also managed to make them drop WoG and Exorcism and Dispelling: not worth a slot for two dispels. Probably also Words of Wisdom because paladins lose Portal. Beginners Handbook stays until you get GI because of trap/door detection is not removed, and because it stays with bless other books with "buffing" are redundant (same spell, just duration is longer). And I'm not sure I would use Chants and Blessings for just Prot. from Evil. Probably not worth a slot.

So you basically would get a Paladin with three out of five dungeon books (Holy Infusions is not worth a slot and as soon as Paladin gets GI Beginners Handbook gets dumped).

[Timo Pietilä]

Actually I quite disagree here.

Based of course on my playing style, by clvl30 i have no need for the (costly) spell since i always carry a nice stack of -DetectTreasure, which i will throw away only when i reach high sp thresholds.

There is a quite recent change in rods of detect treasure, they didn't used to detect items, only treasure (money and treasure veins). IMO they are now overpowered and should be a lot lot deeper items. About levels where you might find Rod of detection, but less rare.

IMO detecting items should be relatively costly thing to do. Clairvoyance (potion and spell) should not reveal items because it does so in entire level, detection spell and rods OTOH are already deep enough and only reveal items in near you so they do mess with things too badly.

[miyazaki]

I disagree strongly about detection changes. Very strongly. IMO detections are pretty much only reason to keep magic books for ranger and paladin (and rogue), everything else is something that can be easily replaced by items for them except maybe haste. If you remove detections you have basically three warrior-classes, rogue and two spellcasters. Not good.

...

So you will have Ranger that has Sorcery and Evocations for haste and Tenser's Transformation for buffing and greater recharge. Two books. There is no reason to keep anything else. You could as well remove every spell from them and make them proper archer class.

I am very okay with having three warrior classes. It seems better than having one warrior-class and five spellcasters, like we currently have. If we want to have distinct classes, we will have to make sacrifices in class abilities that will have definite effects on game play.

Your play style may lead you to discard all but 2 spellbooks for a ranger, but I am not convinced that this is a good reason to add or subtract spells.

When I was putting together this new scheme, I tried to put my own playstyle aside, and devise the spell lists based on the underlying concept of the classes. I gave spells out based on appropriateness for the class, not on how the class would be played. I think that different players will respond differently to new restrictions in the classes.

[Taha]

I think we are firmly in variant territory to have this dramatic of a reworking in what each class is. Maybe we should start by adding a couple of classes with these new limitations and playtesting them rather than redefining the existing ones so dramatically.

I'm not sure what the new theory of assigning spells is here. Rogue magic currently is almost exclusively detection until late mid game or after. Then resistance, ID, and stone to mud can be helpful, but detection is still the core. Without that, might as well play a warrior.

A signficant portion of the game right now is based around spell and device magic; there are tradeoffs between these among all of the classes, but we already have a spell free caste. To differentiate among three or four castes with extremely limited magic enough to make any meaningful difference will require big gameplay changes, probably before nerfing all the spells. These changes move the balance from most players using a mix of spells and devices to most just using devices.

Personally, spells make the game far more entertaining. It makes levelling up into something more interesting than just gaining hp, at almost every range of levels, and I don't see much equivalence to that for warriors. I've never played a warrior because of that lack (plus a dislike of dealing with food beyond a certain point). But I can go back to just playing mages and priests if necessary.
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[fph]

Mordenkainen's Escapes: Not worth a slot once you have rod.

c) Teleport Level -> not needed
d) Word of Recall -> scrolls, rods
e) Rune of Protection -> not needed

I don't get it. I suppose you always recall in a "safe" situation, so that mana cost and fail rate are not primary issues. So, why should I carry a rod that does recall only rather than a spellbook that does recall + something else that may be useful in some case after all? To save 1.5lbs?

The same applies for other spellbooks that you mentioned, but this seems the best example.