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[Derakon]

I decided to roll up my own warrior. I'm at 1950', clvl 29, and so far:

I've found seven randarts. Nothing obscene yet, but the slay-evil 8d3 lead-filled mace makes a nice swap (only other ability is resist confusion, so I carry my Westernesse tulwar as standard gear).

I've also found two Rods of Detection. They may be a bit too common, much as I like actually being able to see the dungeon when playing as a warrior. It's a bit weird to be getting them before other classes would normally get their Detection spells..

I've also fought three five-headed hydrae. These guys are a serious pain. Seriously, 450 HP at 1400'? Ehhh...

I've found two lesser vaults (Camouflaged and Workaround). Dunno what was in Workaround that breathed chaos on me, but Lokkak was pounding away so I had to flee...

I have an AC of 118 so far, of which 41 is coming from my body armor. This feels pretty decent.

I also have had trouble finding a launcher. I finally broke down and bought a longbow (I was hoping for a light crossbow to show up). Then immediately afterwards I got a randart shortbow which deals slightly more damage with unenchanted ammo. Oh, well.

Consumables seem to be fairly readily-available so far. I've found multiple stat-gain potions (mostly WIS, natch), anyway.

[d_m]

@d_m:
Or else you got unlucky. Ouch!
Also:
* I'm liking the new archery. (Bard does 320 vs Dragons with Seeker arrows. That seems quite fair.)
* Plenty of ego ammo; not so much choice in launchers.
* Do damage rings top out at +9? (I've found several, all +9.)
* 4000': Found 3 BoChaos in same small vault, and 5 in game. Big 3 weapons are much more common than they used to be.

In the last 50k turns I found some =tOther which have helped, as well as 2 more artifacts (mormegil and celegorm).

I did find a =dmg +12 pretty fast which helped a lot (saw a =accuracy +24 in the BM), as well as some boots of speed +8, so I haven't been *that* unlucky.

I have found branded ammo to be ok also. Heavy armor definitely seems useful now.

[d_m]

I've also found two Rods of Detection. They may be a bit too common, much as I like actually being able to see the dungeon when playing as a warrior. It's a bit weird to be getting them before other classes would normally get their Detection spells..

Still haven't found even one in my warrior game. So, they aren't *always* too common. Rods have been very hard to come by in my game, for whatever reason (still really need a rod of tOther).

Consumables seem to be fairly readily-available so far. I've found multiple stat-gain potions (mostly WIS, natch), anyway.

I've been really pleased with the consumable rate. Often I've been surprised to see that I just happened to replentish !CCW, or ?phase while in the dungeon and don't actually need to return to town.

[Pete Mack]

Rods of detection aren't particularly common:
I found one at 3800, shortly after finding first --dTraps.
Also found Rod of Healing at 4000'. Recharge time of 2000 turns makes it not much use. I'd rather have Tulkas (75 turn haste self with 150 turn recharge time.)

Deepest unique killed: Glaurung, an epic fight using Bard. (He summoned 3 times.)
I wouldn't have fought him, except I found !rPois on the floor. Along with Fire immunity and Barahir (swap), this let me soften him up a bit. Calris proved useful vs the summons.

I've been carrying 4 weapons, since forever:
* Firestar (Fire immunity)
* Calris (rDis, CON and *Slay* dragon)
* Orome -- speed > 10 (now speed 15)
* BoC *Slay Demon*
And now I'm carrying two cloaks:
Tuor (Acid immunity)
Holcolleth (speed +3)

[Pete Mack]

More points:
* Great Bile Wyrms shouldn't shimmer to white
* Gravity hounds should shimmer shades of grey
* Purple uniques still broken, although I do get a kick out of Ghost Riders of the Purple Sage. With 16 extra colors plus shimmering it should be easy.
* (Time) Hounds should not all shimmer same color together, especially if one of those colors is water-hound gray.
* Deep Descent is too common: stacks are too large in Black Market. Made getting to speed ring depth way to easy, as I had more than enough for escapes.
* Carlammas(+4) is just insane
* Dwarven DSM is too common.

[d_m]

More points:
* Great Bile Wyrms shouldn't shimmer to white
* Gravity hounds should shimmer shades of grey
* Purple uniques still broken, although I do get a kick out of Ghost Riders of the Purple Sage. With 16 extra colors plus shimmering it should be easy.
* (Time) Hounds should not all shimmer same color together, especially if one of those colors is water-hound gray.
* Deep Descent is too common: stacks are too large in Black Market. Made getting to speed ring depth way to easy, as I had more than enough for escapes.
* Carlammas(+4) is just insane
* Dwarven DSM is too common.

Thanks for the comments on shimmering. I've been using the "realtime shimmer" effect where it's not a problem; thanks for pointing out the confusion you get in the non-realtime case. I think the easiest thing to do will be to desynchronize the monsters... since most letter + color combinations are *something* shimmer will often be ambiguous... but at least then you'll see a mixed group of hounds.

Dwarven DSM is too common, but I love it! (using it right now in fact)

[Derakon]

Okay, now I'm starting to think that artifacts are too common. On a single level at 2300' I've found four randarts, including this little fellow:

The Leather Shield of Hargol (+3,+8) [8,+19] (+2)

+2 speed.
Provides resistance to lightning, fire, cold, disenchantment. 
Cannot be harmed by acid, electricity, fire, cold.
Grants telepathy.

Obviously there's a large luck element to this, but I've found 15 artifacts now! Where were these guys with my last two randart games? Oddly enough, I'm pretty certain I've now found more randart weapons than I have ego weapons.

Ladder dump

[Pete Mack]

@Eddie:
Your point re Calris is made. I am attempting to fight Morgoth & Sauron at cl 40, and it is taking forever to get Calris up to positive enchantment.

Lack of buyout button is just silly at this point. I've got everything except a half-decent bonus on Calris (-14 is just awful), and I'm a bit short on !CCW.
With 350K GP, I should be able to demand good service in these stores!

[Pete Mack]

Another point:
* Enchanted Calris from -12 to -9; nominal damage (vs evil) went from 101 to 100.4. (Both are wildly wrong, as the base damage without criticals is 57+25 = 82.)
* Oh, and did I mention? Add buyout button, at least for cl 40+ characters. I need ?to_hit and !CCW, and I don't care what else I spend GP on!

[ewert]

Please do report artifact rarity, because on some games I too feel I get lots of them. But it is very strange, because for base item types the changes should have made them MORE rare rather than more common ...

As for DSM's, they are definitely more common yes, but so far haven't found a usable one yet (though I have found found PDSM, even that didn't get used though...).

I have a feeling we need to make OoD check for items a bit harder though. A straight up halving the current chance of breaking OoD, IMHO.

[Pete Mack]

I am using Bronze DSM (Dwarven) (+2) right now, and I'm about to take on Sauron.
I just wish I had Green (+2) instead.

 Name   Elrona                                   Self  RB  CB  EB   Best
 Sex    Female       Age            122   STR! 18/100  +1  +5  +7 18/***
 Race   High-Elf     Height          70   INT:  18/77  +3  -2  +3 18/117
 Class  Warrior      Weight         158   WIS:     18  -1  -2  +3     18
 Title  Champion     Social      Lordly   DEX:  18/89  +3  +2 +10 18/***
 HP     506/892      Maximize         Y   CON:  18/93  +1  +2 +12 18/***
 SP     0/0                               Chr:  18/65  +5  -1  +0 18/105  18/85

 Level               40   Armor   [39,+113]     Saving Throw         81%
 Cur Exp        2223225   Fight   (+47,+37)     Stealth        Excellent
 Max Exp        2223225   Melee   (+38,+57)     Fighting       Legendary
 Adv Exp        2500000   Shoot   (+64,+19)     Shooting       Legendary
 MaxDepth   4850' (L97)   Blows      6/turn     Disarming            84%
 Game Turns      423385   Shots      1/turn     Magic Device          73
 Player Turns     53945   Infra       60 ft     Perception        1 in 1
 Active Turns     50823   Speed          26     Searching            52%
 Gold            293186   Burden  149.6 lbs

rAcid:......?+++... rConf:......+....+.
rElec:......?.+.... Sound:......?......
rFire:......?.+.... Shard:......?......
rCold:......?.++... Nexus:......?..+...
rPois:............. Nethr:...........+.
rFear:......?.....+ Chaos:......?....+.
rLite:......?.+...+ Disen:+.....?......
rDark:......?.++... S.Dig:......?......
rBlnd:......?.+.... Feath:......?......
Light:............. Aggrv:+.....?..+...
Regen:............. Stea.:.......+.....
  ESP:....+........ Sear.:....+........
Invis:............+ Infra:......+.....+
FrAct:.+....?...++. Tunn.:.............
HLife:......?...... Speed:.+++...+...+.
ImpHP:............. Blows:.............
ImpSP:......?...... Shots:.............
 Fear:............. Might:.+...........
a) The Bastard Sword 'Calris' (5d4) (-9,+20) (+5)
     +5 constitution.
b) The Long Bow of Bard (x5) (+17,+19) (+2)
     +2 dexterity, speed, shooting power.
     Slays dragons.
c) an Emerald Ring of Speed (+8)
d) an Emerald Ring of Speed (+8)
e) an Azure Amulet of ESP (+7)
     Grants telepathy.  
f) The Phial of Galadriel {!!}
g) Bronze Dragon Scale Mail [18,+19] (+2) {splendid}
     You do not know the full extent of this item's powers.
     +2 strength, constitution, infravision.
h) The Cloak 'Holcolleth' [1,+9] (+3)
     +3 intelligence, wisdom, stealth, speed.
i) The Leather Shield of Celegorm [8,+20]
j) The Steel Helm of Hammerhand (+9,+9) [9,+20] (+3)
     +3 strength, dexterity, constitution.
     Sustains strength, dexterity, constitution.
k) The Set of Leather Gloves 'Cambeleg' (+8,+8) [1,+15] (+2)
     +2 strength, constitution.
l) The Pair of Leather Boots 'Dal-i-thalion' [2,+15] (+5)
     +5 dexterity, speed.

[nullfame]

I am attempting to fight Morgoth & Sauron at cl 40, and it is taking forever to get Calris up to positive enchantment.

I have previously suggested 1 of: (a) make it start at 0 to-hit (or +8) or (b) don't sell enchant scrolls in town and otherwise fix heavy curses (eliminate them, make ?removeCurse apply, sell ?*removeCurse* in the town, whatever).

I used it at -12 and didn't have much trouble, FWIW. I was overdosing on !hero, !berserk, and ?bless.

[Magnate]

Please do report artifact rarity, because on some games I too feel I get lots of them. But it is very strange, because for base item types the changes should have made them MORE rare rather than more common ...

As for DSM's, they are definitely more common yes, but so far haven't found a usable one yet (though I have found found PDSM, even that didn't get used though...).

I have a feeling we need to make OoD check for items a bit harder though. A straight up halving the current chance of breaking OoD, IMHO.

My previous fear was that randarts were rarer than standarts, but now both seem to be a bit too common.

r2029 makes Dwarven armour twice as rare - let me know if it's still too common.

I hope Takk comes back and gives a strong lead on shopping before somebody implements a damn buyout button ....

[Magnate]

Mm, I don't agree. It's good for newbies to start out with some vaguely sane gear already equipped. Otherwise they're liable to spend several lives dying before realizing that combat is hard because they're butt-naked.

However, the different classes should start with roughly equivalent total value in starting gear. We could change things so that the starting gear is debited from their starting cash. For example, you start with 600 AU, then the game automatically buys you a shortsword, some soft leather armor, some torches, some rations, the first mage book, and a scroll of Word of Recall, out of that account. You get to keep whatever money is left after those purchases are made.

This would have the side-effect that charismatic characters would start with slightly more money.

r2030 implements this. Warriors had to lose the broadsword, and even with a short sword the gap between them and magi is still huge - mages start with much more money, albeit no armour. I added STARTING_GOLD to defines.h so we can tweak it with minimal hassle if it needs adjusting. Grateful for any comments on balancing starting kit ...

[Derakon]

I can't check it out right now, so what kinds of disparities are we talking about? And what purchases are costing the warrior so badly? Should we make the spellbooks more expensive? I'll still end up selling the shortsword for a dagger or whip, of course.

Warriors are much more reliant on equipment than the other classes, so it doesn't surprise me that they'd start with more expensive gear and thus less cash. But I'd say that if the disparity is more than 500AU then we might want to tweak starting loadouts and/or prices.

Oh, I note that as-yet shops are still overgenerous with their buy/sell ratios. I sold a Tulwar of Westernesse for 30k. Granted it's a nice ego, but I'd say it still sold for easily triple what the shopkeeper should have paid me for it.