Spellbooks as artifacts

[Magnate]

There is a point in previous posts, but suggested resolution to get that point is not...smart, I think. Unique drops in general should be better than ordinary monsters (and usually they are that). I think what twists some of the players perception of the things is that infamous (MAX mlvl, dlvl) instead of average of two. With averaging mlvl,dlvl and maxing based on mlvl you get exactly what people here wants. Way better drops from deep uniques than low level normal monsters.

I disagree that there needs to be any other changes. I agree that occasional Ringil from snaga is refreshing (you just can't be sure what to get).

Point of unique is that it is legendary monster of some kind. Most of those are named Tolkien highly unique creatures, some are other mythical beasts. When you are fighting Glaurung you are fighting a father of all dragons, a enemy that fought in Nirnaeth Arnoediad and killed a lot of would be heroes. You are fighting a legend.

I agree with you completely. I hope that when enough people have tested the new drop code this perception will go away, because it does indeed do what they want.

[Taha]

Given that change, should we look at the depths of certain high end items? In particular, thinking of rods of speed, the three high end DSMs, and wrath of god. Those will now always be OOD for a non-unique monster drop (and all but a few of the uniques) pre killing morgoth. And rods of speed are already so rare as to be basically useless (can't find enough to get a useable stack for the final fights).

Is there a chance this will help with the lack of deep stat potions, as killing orc pits on 98 will generate a bunch of level 50 or so items?
________
Cumswallower

[Timo Pietilä]

Given that change, should we look at the depths of certain high end items? In particular, thinking of rods of speed, the three high end DSMs, and wrath of god. Those will now always be OOD for a non-unique monster drop (and all but a few of the uniques) pre killing morgoth. And rods of speed are already so rare as to be basically useless (can't find enough to get a useable stack for the final fights).

Is there a chance this will help with the lack of deep stat potions, as killing orc pits on 98 will generate a bunch of level 50 or so items?

Considering that WoG and PDSM are level 100 items they are always OoD items unless you are already fighting Morgoth or get them from deep vault. Stat-potions are dlvl 30 items. They are common from any drop after 3000'.

That system works. It has worked for nearly three decades now. This changed system is even a bit more deep item friendly than it used to be. That max from monster or level is very recent and broken change. Just for those reasons mentioned. If there is no difference between AMHD drop and orc pit then things are broken. With this uniques drop better things than ordinary shallow monsters, vaults are really vaults and not some lame scrapheaps etc.

You just need to get used to the fact that this game is hard. It is supposed to be hard. And it will get harder if I read correctly about some changes in trac. Not nearly as hard it used to be though.

[buzzkill]

-1. I totally love the fact that some pissant snaga drops the uber item that the nearly-killed-me unique didn't drop. I think that's totally great. Long live the RNG.

It would be great if this were an aberration, but it's not, it's the norm .

It enforces the let's just skip by any challenging monster (esp uniques) and kill a bunch of snagas cause that's where the reward is .

It seems to me that the typical classic Angband storyline is kill stuff and get stronger, kill more stuff and get more stronger, kill more stuff and get strong enough to kill the big guy. This is the play style that should be rewarded. It doesn't need to exclude other play styles, but all play styles should not be considered equal .

[fizzix]

It would be great if this were an aberration, but it's not, it's the norm .

are you sure it's not confirmation bias poking its ugly head. My note taking admittedly is weak but Eddie's is pretty good.

Looking at this character: http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=9639

He found 76 artifacts of those 76

18 were from regular monsters
16 were from uniques
the remainder were found on the ground (many in vaults)

Considering that you kill about 100 times more monsters than uniques, this isn't a bad ratio.

My most recent game had 41 artifacts, my notes say 4 were from uniques and 11 were from monsters. That's not too bad either. Not as even a ratio as Eddie's, but I'm not sure how good my notes are.

In this my endgame gear included 2 items from the floor, 1 item from a unique (speed boots from vecna) and 9 items from monsters. Now I killed 84 uniques and over 10,000 monsters. So even if only 1/10 items came from uniques that's still a huge advantage to killing them over a random monster. (I killed almost 2500 orcs and netted only 2 artifacts from them! That's not good odds at all!)

Looking at another game's endgame gear I see 1 item from uniques, 7 from monsters (amazingly 3 from the same dracolisk), 3 from the floor and an elvenkind shield from the town.

(Another game has 6 from monsters and 6 from the floor (and none from uniques)) and that's all I'm looking at for now.

[Antoine]

It would be great if this were an aberration, but it's not, it's the norm [/B]

Perhaps not under the new drop code

A.

[Taha]

At end game I often go down to level 100 before being completely ready for Morgoth, destructing or TO-ing him away as necessary. At that point, every item dropped passed the depth check. This change reverts to making it significantly less likely to find two of the coolest and rarest items in the game. Probably not going to make a difference to any decision makers, just pointing it out.

I agree that the game has become easier along the way, and not suggesting it should be more so. But I also remember Moria, and dying until it was boring, because it was too hard. I prefer the current balance, even though I still die frequently.
________
bondage girl Webcam

[Timo Pietilä]

At end game I often go down to level 100 before being completely ready for Morgoth, destructing or TO-ing him away as necessary. At that point, every item dropped passed the depth check. This change reverts to making it significantly less likely to find two of the coolest and rarest items in the game. Probably not going to make a difference to any decision makers, just pointing it out.

Those two were too common anyway with that new code which is now reversed to old + max based on mlvl. You now get them from Sauron or from Morgoth or deep vault.

I agree that the game has become easier along the way, and not suggesting it should be more so. But I also remember Moria, and dying until it was boring, because it was too hard. I prefer the current balance, even though I still die frequently.

What kills you? It doesn't take miracles to survive in angband, not in old or in this much easier new one, Usually just knowing what you should fight is enough. So if you have played Moria before Angband and are getting killed in Angband there is something fundamental wrong in your playstyle (or don't you just care if you die?).

[Rizwan]

So basically, you're saying that unique drops must be made better so that other players may be tempted to play in a fashion that's better aligned with your sensibilities?

First of all we are all just expressing our own views on this forum. It is the maintainers who have the burden of reading all our bs and trying to see if anything is worth implementing. It is not my intention to force any one to play like I do, maybe convince them. I am just saying that my sensibilities lead me to say that unique monster drops should be artifacts. If someone does not agree to that, well that is his opinion and he is welcome to it. In one of the other threads the issue being discussed is how to make the middle levels of the game more interesting? So in a sense maybe this discussion is better suited on that thread. But it is my opinion that making unique monster drops artifacts may lead to this.

Restating your thesis without giving any extra justification just means that this is down to a matter of taste. You think uniques should drop artifacts, I emphatically do not. My argument against this is that it would devalue artifacts (not to mention really trivialize the search for endgame gear).

Well if by trivialize search for endgame wear and devalue artifacts you mean I dont have to bounce around dl 98 dl 99 waiting for some snaga to drop the stuff I want then yes that is what I am saying. I don't think that grind to finish out your kit is very enjoyable. Again that is just my opinion others might find it very exhilarating. Also there is no need to give the shallower uniques the good artifacts like feanor or ringil or soulkeeper but maybe the heavily cursed ones or ones that aggravate etc.

Your argument in favor is that you don't feel the risk of the unique is currently balanced by a commensurate reward?

Its not just that the reward is not worth the risk, its the fact that you can just skip that unique and go on ahead without it really affecting your game. I mean if some (most?) of the uniques were removed from the game would it affect the game much/at all? I don't think so. Whatever you can get from killing a unique you can easily get from some other monster.There is no incentive to kill them. So yes the reward is not worth the risk. I am more of a level clearer so I always try to kill uniques as I see them (if I can) and I always feel let down after fighting them.

[buzzkill]

I am more of a level clearer so I always try to kill uniques as I see them (if I can) and I always feel let down after fighting them.[/FONT]

This is just my opinion, don't kill me.

While I wouldn't call myself a level clearer, I too like to kill uniques, because, well, what else is there to do, kill 100's of anonymous orcs?. I'm also continually disappointed with the results. You want to talk about disappointing Angband newbs. "Oh boy, I just killed Brodda and all he dropped is this stupid potion (of weakness)."

I reiterate and expand upon my previous post. I'm NOT suggesting that every unique drop an artifact. I AM suggesting that the game would be improved if uniques that represent a threat to the character based on cl vs. native depth had a probability, in addition to their normal drop, to drop a level appropriate artifact, if one is available.

For example, any given race/class combo will typically reach DL 20 with a CL somewhere between CL10-CL20. Assuming this is true (numbers subject to change based upon more informed opinions) I feel that a CL20 character that kills a DL20 unique should be rewarded with a 25% of that unique dropping an (in depth) artifact. A CL10 character who kills that same unique (not likely) should have a 50% chance of an (in depth) artifact. Even less experienced characters should have an even higher % chance (CL5/75%).

It would make uniques unique, because right now they are indistinguishable from normal OoD monsters save for their name and escorts. Uniques are so broken currently, that some players intentionally leave uniques alive some that their escorts may be 'farmed' at deeper levels.

@fizzix, your 'how artifact are obtained' post, although anecdotal, IMO seems to confirm not deny my point. In your best case, just less than half of the artifacts came form uniques. In the worst, just 1 of 7. IMO artifacts should come primarily from two sources, uniques and vaults (or uniques in vaults), and very rarely (BoS rarely) from RNG handing one to a snaga or lying it on the floor. We have ego items for that. The reason we accept gaining a majority of our artifacts from killing troll/orc/dragon pits or finding them on the floor is because were fat and lazy, we've become complacent and accept it... only because we are used to it.

There may be better way. It could very well encourage exploration. It just might generate the gradual strengthening of the character that Angband should strive for. I feel that it would certainly be better than what we have now. I don't see where the opposition comes from. You can't possibly believe that picking up a majority of your artifacts off the floor or from a dead troll is a better mechanic. If that is your POV, than this doesn't discourage that. You can still bypass the uniques and get your Ringils from troll pits.

You kill 1000's of ordinary monsters because you have to. You kill uniques because you want to. The fact the former is rewarded and the latter is discouraged (by the default drop mechanic) is disappointing.

[Taha]

Those two were too common anyway with that new code which is now reversed to old + max based on mlvl. You now get them from Sauron or from Morgoth or deep vault.

PDSM and WoG were always out of depth, from Sauron or level 99, leaves a vault or floor of level 100. Never seen PDSM, once found WoG, not very (even if too) common. The top average drop depth for non uniques on non quest levels is now greater balrogs on level 98, at 89. So the change is more the rarities for things in the 90s. I think rods of speed ought to be in depth for some non unique kill, they are exceedingly rare as it is.

What kills you? It doesn't take miracles to survive in angband, not in old or in this much easier new one, Usually just knowing what you should fight is enough. So if you have played Moria before Angband and are getting killed in Angband there is something fundamental wrong in your playstyle (or don't you just care if you die?).

In Moria, it was knowing what to fight and keeping track of what was around me. I was a teenager, no great insights into the game or access to the forums.

I have a (nonscummed) Angband winner - these forums contributed to that - so have improved, but my "average" character doesn't win, and I didn't get the impression that most (any?) won more than once every few characters. I don't think its a fundamental playstyle issue, just the nature of the game.

There are still many ways to die...
________
GisseleVogue

[Derakon]

Those two were too common anyway with that new code which is now reversed to old + max based on mlvl. You now get them from Sauron or from Morgoth or deep vault.

Having recently played a priest and a paladin, I'm curious why Wrath of God is so rare anyway. I will grant that it has two hugely game-changing spells in it: Banish Evil and Word of Destruction. However, the mage-types get Mass Banishment and Word of Destruction much more easily*, from Kelek's at dlvl 80. No other spells in Wrath of God (Dispel Undead, Dispel Evil, Annihilation) are really worthwhile. So why is WoG so much harder to find?

* I will grant Mass Banishment doesn't deal with evil uniques like Banish Evil does, but that's only really an issue with Morgoth

[PowerDiver]

Having recently played a priest and a paladin, I'm curious why Wrath of God is so rare anyway.

MB9 used to be rare too, but there was a mage spell reworking and it was changed. When I asked for PB9 to have the same depth and rarity as MB9, I was told to wait until priest spells are reworked.

In light of the recent change to drop levels, when interest died down on the argumentative threads I started recently, I was planning a feature request to make mage and priest books have the same prices and drop rates.

[Timo Pietilä]

PDSM and WoG were always out of depth, from Sauron or level 99, leaves a vault or floor of level 100. Never seen PDSM, once found WoG, not very (even if too) common.

I though you mean PDSM -> Bladeturner and The One Ring. WoG is not that rare, even if it is dlvl 100 item. Unlike artifacts it is normal base item which means it doesn't need to pass multiple rarity and generation checks, only OOD check unless generated in vault at deep level.

In Moria, it was knowing what to fight and keeping track of what was around me. I was a teenager, no great insights into the game or access to the forums.

I have a (nonscummed) Angband winner - these forums contributed to that - so have improved, but my "average" character doesn't win, and I didn't get the impression that most (any?) won more than once every few characters. I don't think its a fundamental playstyle issue, just the nature of the game.

There are still many ways to die...

I win nearly every char, and I think Eddie wins more than 50% of those of his chars that survive few first levels. Of course there are also people that have played this game a long time without winning, but that's probably mostly result of loss of concentration and not really caring if their chars die.

[Timo Pietilä]

* I will grant Mass Banishment doesn't deal with evil uniques like Banish Evil does, but that's only really an issue with Morgoth

Just in case you didn't know this: Banish evil is basically mass TO all evil monsters in LoS. It doesn't remove monsters from level.