Spellbooks as artifacts

[nullfame]

Many people think the reward for killing the uniques is them not appearing in the final fights. I don't personally subscribe to this theory, though I followed that advice to get my first win.

[fizzix]

I think you should average an artifact from every 5 or so uniques killed. I don't think we're that far from that.

[buzzkill]

Killing a unique while it's still a challenge should be justification enough for the RNG to award a level appropriate artifact (or at least a % chance to do so in addition to the ordinary drop). I guess 'challenging' would have to be based entirely on some ratio of the characters clvl vs. the uniques native depth. Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way.

[Hariolor]

Killing a unique while it's still a challenge should be justification enough for the RNG to award a level appropriate artifact (or at least a % chance to do so in addition to the ordinary drop). I guess 'challenging' would have to be based entirely on some ratio of the characters clvl vs. the uniques native depth. Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way.

+1

XP is already scaled as a factor based on DL and CL, right? and IIRC, killing weak uniques at lower levels improves the items they drop (assuming they drop anything). How hard would it be to scale the likelihood of a drop to an equation based on the difference between CL and the native DL of the unique. The more OoD, the worse (or better) the types of drops. Thus killing Bullroarer at DL 25 would yield nothing, while offing on OoD Smaug at DL 25 would give a pretty epic drop...

[Derakon]

You could simply add (mlvl - dlvl) to the drop's depth calculator for unique monsters. This would be positive for OoD uniques and negative for uniques that are deeper than they should be. You might want some level of multiplication going on, though, since killing an OoD unique is often a very difficult feat.

[PowerDiver]

+1

XP is already scaled as a factor based on DL and CL, right? and IIRC, killing weak uniques at lower levels improves the items they drop (assuming they drop anything). How hard would it be to scale the likelihood of a drop to an equation based on the difference between CL and the native DL of the unique. The more OoD, the worse (or better) the types of drops. Thus killing Bullroarer at DL 25 would yield nothing, while offing on OoD Smaug at DL 25 would give a pretty epic drop...

Why should Bullroarer drop less at DL25 than a novice ranger?

So then after you dive to DL99 for your basic kit, you drop back to DL25 and use staves of summoning so you can kill the uniques for better drops. This encourages you to be extra careful not to kill uniques on the first trip down so you can get them out of depth the second time.

You guys are trying too hard. If you want to break drops, just make the drop level the monster level and ignore the depth. However, keep in mind that the pendulum swung the other way because people were complaining of too many useless drops even using avg{ML,DL}.

[Rizwan]

There are 102 unique monsters in the game, and 136 artifacts. Do you really want to be guaranteed to get 75% of the artifacts just by killing each unique monster?

Sometimes, indeed often, the satisfaction of killing the unique is the only significant reward you get.

But then what makes him unique? His name? His color?
He is then no different than any other monster maybe even worse than some other ones in terms of drops.
I see a unique as the pinnacle of monsterhood in his race. Killing him should give me the pinnacle in drops ie an artifact.

[buzzkill]

Why should Bullroarer drop less at DL25 than a novice ranger?

He shouldn't. He would still drop whatever he drops now. Probably a fistful of gold coins. My point is that if you somehow manage to encounter and kill him at clvl 1 (regardless of dlvl), you should be rewarded for it.

So then after you dive to DL99 for your basic kit, you drop back to DL25 and use staves of summoning so you can kill the uniques for better drops. This encourages you to be extra careful not to kill uniques on the first trip down so you can get them out of depth the second time.

That's why the unique drop needs to be based on clvl and not dlvl. If you can dive to dlvl99 without increasing your clvl, then that's a whole different problem. Furthermore, if you can exploit the game in that way, I see no problem with you exploiting the game in this way as well. When you fix the first one, you'll fix both.

You guys are trying too hard. If you want to break drops, just make the drop level the monster level and ignore the depth. However, keep in mind that the pendulum swung the other way because people were complaining of too many useless drops even using avg{ML,DL}.

I'm discussing uniques specifically. I'm tired of busting my ass, killing uniques, gaining nothing, then knocking off a snaga (just a few steps away) and ending up with an artifact. BROKEN.

It would also give player a reason to develop a strong kit early (more exploration), and take on uniques voluntarily (more exploration), because they will be worthwhile. Killing uniques in depth and gaining artifacts will allow the player to follow the 'power curve', and may just be the justification everyone is looking for to explore the dungeon.

[Rizwan]

I'm discussing uniques specifically. I'm tired of busting my ass, killing uniques, gaining nothing, then knocking off a snaga (just a few steps away) and ending up with an artifact. BROKEN.

Hear hear I totally agree +1

[Derakon]

[FONT="Comic Sans MS"]But then what makes him unique? His name? His color?

And his hitpoints, melee attacks, spells, and other special abilities. Uniques represent a unique challenge (or, in the case of the orc uniques, a challenge that is only duplicated a limited number of times...). I have plenty of incentive to kill them now simply because they are unique: they are a challenge, therefore I must attempt the challenge. Frankly I don't think they need a boost in their drop to justify their existence. I also don't think that anything should be guaranteed in drops, certainly not artifacts.

[Rizwan]

And his hitpoints, melee attacks, spells, and other special abilities.

For his race maybe but if I compare him to some other monster he might not be so different in his hitpoints, melee attacks, spells and other abilities.

Uniques represent a unique challenge (or, in the case of the orc uniques, a challenge that is only duplicated a limited number of times...). I have plenty of incentive to kill them now simply because they are unique: they are a challenge, therefore I must attempt the challenge.

I guess you and I might consider them a challenge but a lot of people on this forum just bypass them, just like ordinary monsters, intent on diving deeper, faster.

Frankly I don't think they need a boost in their drop to justify their existence. I also don't think that anything should be guaranteed in drops, certainly not artifacts.

Not in normal drops, I agree, but unique drops must also be unique.

[Derakon]

I guess you and I might consider them a challenge but a lot of people on this forum just bypass them, just like ordinary monsters, intent on diving deeper, faster.

So basically, you're saying that unique drops must be made better so that other players may be tempted to play in a fashion that's better aligned with your sensibilities?

Not in normal drops, I agree, but unique drops must also be unique.

Restating your thesis without giving any extra justification just means that this is down to a matter of taste. You think uniques should drop artifacts, I emphatically do not. My argument against this is that it would devalue artifacts (not to mention really trivialize the search for endgame gear). Your argument in favor is that you don't feel the risk of the unique is currently balanced by a commensurate reward?

[PowerDiver]

He shouldn't. He would still drop whatever he drops now. Probably a fistful of gold coins.

I was responding to Hariolar who proposed there should be no drop at all for Bullroarer at DL 25.

[Magnate]

Hear hear I totally agree +1

-1. I totally love the fact that some pissant snaga drops the uber item that the nearly-killed-me unique didn't drop. I think that's totally great. Long live the RNG.

[Timo Pietilä]

-1. I totally love the fact that some pissant snaga drops the uber item that the nearly-killed-me unique didn't drop. I think that's totally great. Long live the RNG.

There is a point in previous posts, but suggested resolution to get that point is not...smart, I think. Unique drops in general should be better than ordinary monsters (and usually they are that). I think what twists some of the players perception of the things is that infamous (MAX mlvl, dlvl) instead of average of two. With averaging mlvl,dlvl and maxing based on mlvl you get exactly what people here wants. Way better drops from deep uniques than low level normal monsters.

I disagree that there needs to be any other changes. I agree that occasional Ringil from snaga is refreshing (you just can't be sure what to get).

Point of unique is that it is legendary monster of some kind. Most of those are named Tolkien highly unique creatures, some are other mythical beasts. When you are fighting Glaurung you are fighting a father of all dragons, a enemy that fought in Nirnaeth Arnoediad and killed a lot of would be heroes. You are fighting a legend.