Spellbooks as artifacts

[TJS]

I've just found an interesting looking vault the type of which I've never seen before on lvl 98.
Anyway it turns out there are 4 Ethereal Openings and 4 Raals Tome in this one vault.

I quite like the idea of having the dungeon books as artifacts meaning that it is more interesting when you find them and you don't have them cluttering up the levels (from lvl 90 onwards you seem to get 2-3 a level). I've stumbled across around 10 artifacts all game and around 200 dungeon spell/prayer books.

It might be quite good to have extra rare books that have very powerful spells in them that you don't find every game to add a bit of variety.

[Derakon]

Both suggestions have been made before. Doesn't mean they aren't good ideas. The only purpose to having multiple copies of the same dungeon book is to provide some level of theft protection; however, theft is so rarely an issue anyway that we may as well just make them theft-immune (i.e. artifacts) just as they're immune to the elements. Well. I suppose this would mean I'd have to dedicate a slot in my home to Holy Infusions instead of just leaving it on the ground.

As for new super-rare spellbooks, they'd probably have to have some fairly niche spells. The existing spellbooks already make you pretty gobstoppingly powerful, especially Banishment and Word of Destruction. I could see room for, say, a spell that summons hostile monsters, though, with "Summon Unique" being the last listed spell.

[Magnate]

Both suggestions have been made before. Doesn't mean they aren't good ideas. The only purpose to having multiple copies of the same dungeon book is to provide some level of theft protection; however, theft is so rarely an issue anyway that we may as well just make them theft-immune (i.e. artifacts) just as they're immune to the elements. Well. I suppose this would mean I'd have to dedicate a slot in my home to Holy Infusions instead of just leaving it on the ground.

This is a very early ambition of Takk's (ticket #353), and it just so happens that I'm planning on tackling #1014 soon-ish, which is the rewrite of artifact generation code so we are not limited to four lights, five amulets, six rings etc. Non-wearable artifacts are not precisely the same issue but I might as well consider both together. I wonder about making books 5 and 6 into artifacts, because they are actually pretty common, and there might be some issues if people can't find them. It'll need a lot of playtesting in any case.

As for new super-rare spellbooks, they'd probably have to have some fairly niche spells. The existing spellbooks already make you pretty gobstoppingly powerful, especially Banishment and Word of Destruction. I could see room for, say, a spell that summons hostile monsters, though, with "Summon Unique" being the last listed spell.

We should keep discussions of spells separate from changes to existing books. There's a whole world of possibilities here: empty books into which you can scribe your choice of spells, randomised books, hybrid realm books, single-use books which disappear when the last spell is used, etc. This probably needs a more in-depth approach than just turning existing books into artifacts.

[nullfame]

There is a short period in the game with Book 5 where I might stow copies at home due to weight (before my home is full) and drop the one I carry before recall knowing I have another. Also I don't mind finding an extra Tenser's (which I keep at home) while in the dungeon and using it until I need the slot back. I don't think I've accidentally dropped a dungeon book but never getting another copy would be an unfortunate business.

All of these are edge cases but merit consideration.

[fph]

This would probably be the final blow to non-preserve mode.

[TJS]

This would probably be the final blow to non-preserve mode.

I never really understood why when artifacts are lost in-game they're gone forever. Surely they've already been lost in the pits before you've even started the game and so by that logic you'd never find any.

[Timo Pietilä]

This would probably be the final blow to non-preserve mode.

I agree. While there are replacements for any equipment, there are no replacements for spellbooks.

It would be completely different issue if there are also normal spellbooks and for example having artifact spellbooks 1 and 2 would allow you to drop three of the normal spellbooks because all of their spells are covered by those two books (with possible some extra that are not in any of the normal books, like detection for mages and haste for priests).

[Timo Pietilä]

I never really understood why when artifacts are lost in-game they're gone forever. Surely they've already been lost in the pits before you've even started the game and so by that logic you'd never find any.

Artifacts are supposed to be unique findings, and as such also generation of those is unique event not repeated later. Each artifact finding should be rather rare "wohoo!" -moment. Currently there just are too many of them to produce that "wohoo!" -moment, and with preserve mode there are no risk losing anything if you just don't look, so whole idea of the unique items and single great moments is lost.

[TJS]

Artifacts are supposed to be unique findings, and as such also generation of those is unique event not repeated later. Each artifact finding should be rather rare "wohoo!" -moment. Currently there just are too many of them to produce that "wohoo!" -moment, and with preserve mode there are no risk losing anything if you just don't look, so whole idea of the unique items and single great moments is lost.

Are they? Seems like you find some of the same artifacts almost every game, for example I've just found Thorin again.

But the actual reasoning for them being lost forever escapes me. The boots of Feanor were presumably lost by Feanor, so once he left them behind then they would never appear again.

Would you apply the same logic to the unique monsters? If you leave the level with them on it them they're gone forever?

[Timo Pietilä]

Are they? Seems like you find some of the same artifacts almost every game, for example I've just found Thorin again.

In the same game? Twice? If you find same artifacts almost every game make them rarer and reduce their number so that they are not as boring as they are now. Game should not be about artifacts. Artifacts should be the spice of the soup, not the ingredient of the soup. IMO ideally every char should have one or slots that are not artifact at the endgame.

But the actual reasoning for them being lost forever escapes me. The boots of Feanor were presumably lost by Feanor, so once he left them behind then they would never appear again.

Would you apply the same logic to the unique monsters? If you leave the level with them on it them they're gone forever?

Monsters move. Boots of Feanor have been lost by Feanor, and you might or might not have one chance of finding them again. Forget game internal rarity and level settings, think every artifact finding as single event that is so rare that it will never repeat itself.

[fyonn]

This would probably be the final blow to non-preserve mode.

I hope not. I always used to play in non-preserve mode and I've only recently been playing with it on as I hadn't noticed and I turned it off when I realised.

preserve off seems somehow "right" for angband with it's single "life".

dave

[Derakon]

You can't find the same artifact twice in one game, preserve mode or no.

Well, I amend that. If you find an item on the floor, and try to destroy it and fail, you can recognize that it is an artifact without knowing what it is. You could then leave it on the floor and find it again later (with preserve off). But as soon as you pick it up, you must take it with you or lose it forever. Thus finding a particular artifact is a once-in-a-game (at most!) "woohoo!" moment.

[Nick]

If you find an item on the floor, and try to destroy it and fail, you can recognize that it is an artifact without knowing what it is.

It's usually Mormegil.

[Rizwan]

Also I think Uniques should always drop at least one artifact, it just seems so wrong that you fight a unique and he drops nothing (or next to nothing).

[Derakon]

There are 102 unique monsters in the game, and 136 artifacts. Do you really want to be guaranteed to get 75% of the artifacts just by killing each unique monster?

Sometimes, indeed often, the satisfaction of killing the unique is the only significant reward you get.