Warning - nightlies unbalanced from r2008

[Twilight]

Hmm - I see that +3 blows is still too common on randarts, even after I made them worth more!

@Twilight: interesting that 2/3 of your AC is magical, and only 1/3 was base. I think the standarts generally have higher +ac than randarts - you have a lot of +20 and +25 there.

Glad this is going down reasonably well. Off to make +blows even less likely ...

When I think about it(after what was said above), that characters AC would have been extreme with old base AC as well.

To be clear - I think it's a good thing making AC worthwhile instead of (mostly) disregarding it and just getting it as a byproduct.

[Jungle_Boy]

http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=10504

Unfortunately got killed before getting much further. I like the changes that have been made. One thing I noticed is that when using archery I did not get a message about my missile hitting the monster, was this changed deliberately? Also after looking at the artifact spoiler I have to agree with magnate that +3 attack speed was too common as of this version. There were ~5 weapons with +3 attacks and 3 launchers with +2-3 shots. There were also 8 Artifact DSMs and only 4 pairs of artifact boots, only one of wich had speed, (+4).

[Twilight]

http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=10504

Unfortunately got killed before getting much further. I like the changes that have been made. One thing I noticed is that when using archery I did not get a message about my missile hitting the monster, was this changed deliberately? Also after looking at the artifact spoiler I have to agree with magnate that +3 attack speed was too common as of this version. There were ~5 weapons with +3 attacks and 3 launchers with +2-3 shots. There were also 8 Artifact DSMs and only 4 pairs of artifact boots, only one of wich had speed, (+4).

No message with non-critical missile attacks is a bug with my message color patch. I posted a ticket (and a fix IIRC) (#1169), so I guess it'll be fixed further on.

[Magnate]

http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=10504

Unfortunately got killed before getting much further. I like the changes that have been made. One thing I noticed is that when using archery I did not get a message about my missile hitting the monster, was this changed deliberately? Also after looking at the artifact spoiler I have to agree with magnate that +3 attack speed was too common as of this version. There were ~5 weapons with +3 attacks and 3 launchers with +2-3 shots. There were also 8 Artifact DSMs and only 4 pairs of artifact boots, only one of wich had speed, (+4).

Well, speed on boots and shots on anything should be much better balanced in trunk. I have yet to find a satisfactory way of stopping weapons getting +3 blows: most of these are not generated by the "supercharge" code but by pval increments - it probably needs a specific check for when a pval of 1 or 2 is incremented.

The DSMs thing is truly bizarre. In 3.1.1 randart DSMs were very rare - maybe one or two per set, often none. The variance is now massive: you will still see sets with none, but now some sets will have six or eight. I don't really know why, since they shouldn't be any more common than any other base item. One for the todo list.

[d_m]

No message with non-critical missile attacks is a bug with my message color patch. I posted a ticket (and a fix IIRC) (#1169), so I guess it'll be fixed further on.

Somehow I missed this.

Anyway it's committed as r2021 now, and ticket is closed.

Thanks!

[Jungle_Boy]

Well, speed on boots and shots on anything should be much better balanced in trunk. I have yet to find a satisfactory way of stopping weapons getting +3 blows: most of these are not generated by the "supercharge" code but by pval increments - it probably needs a specific check for when a pval of 1 or 2 is incremented.

I am not opposed to having weapons with +3 attack speed as long as it's valued properly, whatever that may be. I think giving up a certain amount of other useful wepon properties to get +3 attacks is a fair trade.

[Magnate]

I am not opposed to having weapons with +3 attack speed as long as it's valued properly, whatever that may be. I think giving up a certain amount of other useful wepon properties to get +3 attacks is a fair trade.

The problem is off-weapon brands and slays, particularly branding rings (which are the only non-artifact source of these). +3 attacks is currently valued with the assumption of +10 off-weapon damage (e.g. a damage ring), but this is dramatically undervalued, because if you find a +3 blows weapon with half-decent dice, you *will* wear a branding ring.

I have added the ring brand factor in r2028, so let's see if this makes +3 blows sufficiently rare.

[PowerDiver]

The problem is off-weapon brands and slays, particularly branding rings (which are the only non-artifact source of these). +3 attacks is currently valued with the assumption of +10 off-weapon damage (e.g. a damage ring), but this is dramatically undervalued, because if you find a +3 blows weapon with half-decent dice, you *will* wear a branding ring.

You should set things up so that endgame kits are valued properly. IMO the best way to do that is to value the weapon normally. Then value a branding ring assuming you are wielding the glaive of Pain. Then value +att assuming you are wielding Pain with an acid ring.

This may overvalue the +att a little bit, but it will be much closer to correct.

[Magnate]

You should set things up so that endgame kits are valued properly. IMO the best way to do that is to value the weapon normally. Then value a branding ring assuming you are wielding the glaive of Pain. Then value +att assuming you are wielding Pain with an acid ring.

This may overvalue the +att a little bit, but it will be much closer to correct.

Great minds think alike - that's pretty much the way it's going. The branding damage is now 30 (i.e. a 10d5 weapon). The +att rating now assumes +15 off-weapon damage *and* a branding ring.

[PowerDiver]

Great minds think alike - that's pretty much the way it's going. The branding damage is now 30 (i.e. a 10d5 weapon). The +att rating now assumes +15 off-weapon damage *and* a branding ring.

I suggest adding the dam bonus from 18/220 str as well for off-weapon damage +35 or maybe a round +40.

[Jungle_Boy]

Not sure where to post since there are several threads dealing with the new nightly builds but here seems good. I thought there was a max +dam value of +25 on randart weapons however I just found The Long Sword of Earldaldur (4d5) (+13, +34) [+5]. The only other properties are rAcid, rCold, and rFear but the raw damage is pretty nice for 1300 ft with my HT warrior.

Other thoughts on this build (r2025), I have not gotten real deep with any of my characters but consumables seem almost too common, I had a stack of 23 ?Satisfy Hunger and 20 !CLW just from finding stuff in the dungeon, this is before 1000ft. Also my current warrior has 18/82 base strength from the !oBrawn I've found and I'm only at 1300 ft. It's definitely nice to be getting more consummables but maybe we went to far the other way.

[Jungle_Boy]

Also in this same game the second artifact I found was a Broad Sword with +32 AC, not nearly as useful but still seems a little extreme.

[Derakon]

Gondricam is a standart that has +50 AC (it's basically a super-Defender ego), so that's not too unreasonable.

[Timo Pietilä]

+3 blows + big dice + slay evil (and kill undead/dragon/demon) should be extremely rare, maybe generated once every 20 randart games as a top level artifact.

Add brands to that. Especially acid.

[tigpup]

The problem is off-weapon brands and slays

Having just started playing again, it seems that the problem is also off-weapon +3blows on randarts. Especially with gloves that give +dam bonus. My recent randart kobold rogue had 14 blows (+3, +3, +3 on off-weapon kit). Weapon itself was heavy with nice +dam dice, but not in itself over-powered. Those extra off-weapon blows made it stupidly overpowered. That weapon effectively frees-up the shooter slot for whatever I need it for, as a power-sling becomes almost irrelevant.