DSM changes

[TJS]

P.S. I can't really get worked up about this until Takkaria agrees to make recharge times based on total energy instead of any kind of turns ...

Hang on, are people wanting speed to become even more powerful? I personally think that speed is way overpowered at the moment as it is.

Being +10 speed currently:

Doubles the damage you can do by melee or ranged weapons.
Doubles your stealth (since you move twice as fast there is half the chance to wake up monsters)
Means you can't be double moved by fast monsters.
Means you can run away from anything slower than you.
Can heal twice as quickly from spells/potions.

And you can get all this and more from one object. The only thing you don't get is double regen and faster recharge speeds on items.

I personally think that speed should be made less effective not more.

[Derakon]

Making recharge time on rods take the same number of player turns regardless of speed is largely a convenience issue. Right now there are utility rods that are usable early on but become annoyingly slow to recharge once you get some speed (-TrapDetection, -Detection, -Mapping, -Perception, etc.). Improving their recharge time won't have a huge impact on gameplay but it will give the game better flow.

Now, there are several artifact activations which would benefit significantly from having reduced recharge times -- in particular, the artifacts that activate for healing or banishment. We might want to increase their base recharge times if this change is made.

[Pete Mack]

@Magnate --
I meant that if you are slowed due to excessive weight, it's not reasonable that rods take longer to charge.

Also, if you really want consistency, monsters should get a detection check every monster turn, not dungeon turn. That means the Drolem you are sneaking (or walking past obliviously, without monster detection) past has twice as many chances to wake up. I would rather keep the constant recharge time...

[PowerDiver]

@Eddie--
Potions of Resist Heat (or anything else) are vulnerable to breakage from cold under all circumstances..

You misunderstood my point. If you quaff a potion of resist heat, and someone breathes fire, the potion effect causes the scroll in your pack to be less likely to burn. It does not affect the scroll on the floor in the square with you. Analagously, a potion of speed could affect the rod in your pack and not the rod on the floor.

I'm not saying I am in favor of this change, but if it happens I will no longer write a patch to undo it as my immediate response.

[TJS]

Making recharge time on rods take the same number of player turns regardless of speed is largely a convenience issue. Right now there are utility rods that are usable early on but become annoyingly slow to recharge once you get some speed (-TrapDetection, -Detection, -Mapping, -Perception, etc.). Improving their recharge time won't have a huge impact on gameplay but it will give the game better flow.

If a character has greater speed then he can decide to carry more rods and take the weight speed penalty. By the way is there a mapping rod? I don't think I've ever managed to find one.

Now, there are several artifact activations which would benefit significantly from having reduced recharge times -- in particular, the artifacts that activate for healing or banishment. We might want to increase their base recharge times if this change is made.

Wouldn't this make things even harder for characters with no speed boosts though?

[Pete Mack]

By the way is there a mapping rod? I don't think I've ever managed to find one.

Yes, but they are both deep and rare.

Wouldn't this make things even harder for characters with no speed boosts though?

Yes. That's why I prefer the alternative change of reducing recharge times to whatever seems reasonable. (1000 turn recharge on deep items is just crazy, as you generally have speed >= 10 at that point. So reduce it to 400 turns.)

[buzzkill]

Making recharge time on rods take the same number of player turns regardless of speed is largely a convenience issue. Right now there are utility rods that are usable early on but become annoyingly slow to recharge once you get some speed (-TrapDetection, -Detection, -Mapping, -Perception, etc.). Improving their recharge time won't have a huge impact on gameplay but it will give the game better flow.

Waaah. "I move twice as fast now, so it seems that my rods take longer to recharge, even though they don't." It's like winning the lottery then bitching about the taxes.

You can sacrifice the speed, just destroy all + speed items, and then you'll have "better flow", or you can carry multiple rods as TJS suggested. It's your choice. Having your cake and eating it too, never a good idea.

[Timo Pietilä]

Hang on, are people wanting speed to become even more powerful? I personally think that speed is way overpowered at the moment as it is.

Being +10 speed currently:

Doubles the damage you can do by melee or ranged weapons.
Doubles your stealth (since you move twice as fast there is half the chance to wake up monsters)
Means you can't be double moved by fast monsters.
Means you can run away from anything slower than you.
Can heal twice as quickly from spells/potions.

And you can get all this and more from one object. The only thing you don't get is double regen and faster recharge speeds on items.

I personally think that speed should be made less effective not more.

There is nothing wrong with this because these all apply to monsters as well. Monster with double your speed can act twice before you have any action. Speed is powerful and it should be powerful. Its effect is even realistic. Imagine a boxer with double the speed and halve the reaction times. In that +10 speed boxer point of view his opponent is moving in slow motion. That's like battling with a cat. Ever teased a one with popping a toy in random places visible to it? It reacts to that popping toy so fast that you couldn't even start to think of catching it at that time.

I remember fighting a Berserker that probably had +12 initial speed with +0 speed priest. It hasted itself. I phase when it was one block short to me...in three blocks away of it initial position. It didn't only catch me before my next move it also managed to attack. RIP. Other way around me against orc... same deal.

[Timo Pietilä]

Also, if you really want consistency, monsters should get a detection check every monster turn, not dungeon turn.

I thought they did get it every monster turn. If this is not the case then there is a big difference between sleeping and awake monsters (awake monsters certainly know where you are every move they make).

[Derakon]

If a character has greater speed then he can decide to carry more rods and take the weight speed penalty. By the way is there a mapping rod? I don't think I've ever managed to find one.

You assume the player has more copies of the rod. This is reasonable for common rods (-TrapLocation, -Illumination, -Light, and the various attack rods) but everything else is vanishingly rare.

[Pete Mack]

I believe the rod rarity is by design.
In the late game there are two rods that are absolutely necessary:
* Detection (for warriors)
* Teleport other (for everyone except full casters)

Of these, only Detection is rare; it's the biggest weakness of Warriors.
The useful early rods are quite common.

Everything else is a luxury, and should be rare. If they aren't, it further blurs what few distinctions between classes there are.

[Magnate]

@Magnate --
I meant that if you are slowed due to excessive weight, it's not reasonable that rods take longer to charge.

Also, if you really want consistency, monsters should get a detection check every monster turn, not dungeon turn. That means the Drolem you are sneaking (or walking past obliviously, without monster detection) past has twice as many chances to wake up. I would rather keep the constant recharge time...

I agree with you - monsters should get their checks every monster turn, not every player turn.

I also understand the point about weight now - if you look at it like that, you can't really mix magical and non-magical speed adjustments.

For the benefit of those who think speed is too powerful: I am quite happy to see +speed made less powerful in other ways. I just think that recharge times need fixing to make that particular effect of +speed less silly. Despite the issue with encumbrance, fixing recharge times at constant energy is still my favourite solution.

[Atarlost]

I disagree on monster detection checks. Those are the mechanic for the monster hearing the player and the player makes noise by his actions. They should definitely occur based on player turns rather than monster turns, and perhaps should have an additional penalty for speed to represent faster movement creating more noise.

[Zyphyr]

Making recharge times Energy based instead of Turn based has the side benefit of putting things halfway to the possibility of Rods (or other items) that have enough stored power to fire off more than once before needing to recharge. Such as needing 5000 Energy to recharge but having a capacity of 15000. Not something for every item, but a possible option for greater variety in Ego/Artifacts.

[kaypy]

You misunderstood my point. If you quaff a potion of resist heat, and someone breathes fire, the potion effect causes the scroll in your pack to be less likely to burn. It does not affect the scroll on the floor in the square with you.

Perhaps not terribly relevant to the actual argument at hand (and way too late to be useful), but poking around through the fire_dam et al in vanilla:head:spells1.c, the chance of inventory damage seems to be calculated *before* resistances are applied.

Of course (just to prove myself wrong before anyone else can) the potion of resist heat can still provide equipment protection as long as you start from having both immune_fire and vuln_fire...