Class rankings

[Derakon]

I was just doing some thinking about the ranger, and wondered how the different classes stack up on various abilities. Obviously some classes are going to be generally better than others, and this isn't necessarily a bad thing, but how do they actually fall out? So here's some rankings, based on the numbers in p_class.txt. Numbers in parentheses are (starting score / score gain with every 10 levels)

Melee (chance to hit): Warrior (70/45), Paladin (68/35), Rogue (60/40), Ranger (56/30), Priest (48/20), Mage (34/15)
> So mages are about three times worse at melee by the end of the game as warriors are, while rangers are about 2/3rds as good.

Shooting (chance to hit): Ranger (72/45), Warrior (55/45), Rogue (66/30), Paladin (40/30), Priest (35/20), Mage (20/15)
> Warriors are basically as good at shooting as rangers are, discounting the extra shots rangers get. Interesting that rogues start better at bows than warriors do but end up worse after 10 levels.

Stealth: Rogue (5), Ranger (3), Mage/Priest (2), Paladin/Warrior (1)
> No class gains stealth when leveling.

Saving throw: Priest (32/12), Mage (30/9), Rogue/Ranger (28/10), Paladin (25/11), Warrior (18/10)
> This surprised me. Paladins start off low but get better than rogues and rangers once they pass level 40. Warriors completely get the shaft here. Mages just slowly fall from their high perch.

Device skill: Mage (36/13), Rogue/Ranger (32/10), Priest (30/10), Paladin (24/10), Warrior (18/7)
> About what I'd expect. It'd be nice if warriors were better at devices, considering how heavily they rely on them, but I suppose thematically it doesn't make much sense.

Hit dice: Warrior (9), Rogue/Paladin (6), Ranger (4), Priest (2), Mage (0)
> Naturally, no on-level gain here.

My main takeaways from this are:
* Paladins get the shaft, big time. I guess combining the priest spellset with decent melee is really powerful, since my last paladin didn't feel all that weak even though he had gear trouble.
* The only things rangers are arguably bad at are melee and hitpoints; these are also the easiest things to make up for thanks to the ready availability of Bless, Heroism, and Rings of Constitution (CON bonuses make up the majority of your endgame hitpoints).
* Rogues are sturdier and better at combat than I'd realized.

Incidentally, there's an entry in p_class.txt for digging skill. All classes have no inherent ability or growth in that skill.

[buzzkill]

I learned something today. Thanks for the info. I always assumed that mages had the best saves.

[Zikke]

What does it mean that mages have 0 for hit dice? Do they not gain hp as they level according to hit dice like any other class?

[Derakon]

It means that the only hit dice that mages get are from their race:

Half-Troll (12), Dwarf (11), Human/Half-Elf/Half-Orc/Dunadan/High-Elf (10), Elf (9), Gnome/Kobold (8), Hobbit (7)

You get your max hit die on your first level, so e.g. a hobbit mage always starts with 7 HP unless they're getting a CON bonus somehow. In contrast, a half-troll warrior would start with a minimum of 21 HP.

[NotMorgoth]

I don't really play V, and I know the classes are not meant to be balanced in terms of power level, so feel free to ignore me...

But if I did want to even up the power of the classes a bit, I'd think about taking away the extra shots from rangers and giving them to warriors instead. That would make warriors the masters of all forms of physical combat like they should be, and leave rangers weaker but still powerful because of their magic.

I'd maybe even give warriors some kind of extra ability with crossbows as well (not extra shots, maybe increased chance of criticals, though I'm not sure how criticals work in V.)


Just my 2 cents..

[Magnate]

My main takeaways from this are:
* Paladins get the shaft, big time. I guess combining the priest spellset with decent melee is really powerful, since my last paladin didn't feel all that weak even though he had gear trouble.
* The only things rangers are arguably bad at are melee and hitpoints; these are also the easiest things to make up for thanks to the ready availability of Bless, Heroism, and Rings of Constitution (CON bonuses make up the majority of your endgame hitpoints).
* Rogues are sturdier and better at combat than I'd realized.

You are neglecting the fact that the skills are not all equally valuable. A better saving throw is way more useful than better combat skill, because of the myriad ways you can boost your combat skill with +to_hit, and also because of the fact that the combat algorithm renders the combat skill fairly insignificant (for both melee and archery).

Warriors are essentially the challenge class: in return for melee and hp they get mediocre device skill and saves, and no spells. Rogues are probably the next toughest since their spells are all utility and they don't have any special offensive capability (cf. variants with backstabs, traps, etc. etc.). I'd put the mage next because of the early game frailty and dependence on kit, but no idea which of the three "easy" classes is actually easiest. 0% fail heals? Extra shots? Melee, hp and heals combined? I'd guess paladins are third and it's between priests and rangers for the top spot.

[d_m]

Warriors are essentially the challenge class: in return for melee and hp they get mediocre device skill and saves, and no spells. Rogues are probably the next toughest since their spells are all utility and they don't have any special offensive capability (cf. variants with backstabs, traps, etc. etc.). I'd put the mage next because of the early game frailty and dependence on kit, but no idea which of the three "easy" classes is actually easiest. 0% fail heals? Extra shots? Melee, hp and heals combined? I'd guess paladins are third and it's between priests and rangers for the top spot.

I haven't played many rogues, but I just started playing a Gnomish Rogue and I found early diving pretty easy and profitable because of Detect Treasure + Detect Traps/Doors.

That said my first win was with a warrior, so maybe I just find different things challenging.

[Hariolor]

I've found rogues pretty easy to play, actually. Great stealth and decent combat+early detects makes for a highly survivable character. And once a rogue gets decent weapons and armor, they play like mostly like a warrior with better activation chance and some good spell options. They don't really shine at any point in the game, but there's not the early/late learning curve that makes the "pure" classes tougher to learn.

But that's just my $0.02

[Timo Pietilä]

Warriors are essentially the challenge class

I find warriors easy. They are hard only at mid-game but both end and beginning of the game they are probably easiest class of all. Of course they need some non-weapons or armor items more than others, so this current lack of items might have hurt them more than other classes. Haven't played those in 3.1.2.

[ewert]

I'd rate, from easiest to challenging:

Rangers (sorry having insane ranged damage and spells is just freaky, staves of healing exist for end-game anyways, haven't played one since my first winner '05)
Priests (but slower at killing things usually, so kinda boring often)
Paladins, Mages, Rogues (these 3 are kinda same challenge but very different strengths, three very cool classes)
Warriors, the cool class nothing wrong with them they hold their own with high melee dmg in the end, but ... the class doesn't inherently hold utility so relies more on item finds than any other class

[Timo Pietilä]

I'd rate, from easiest to challenging:

Rangers (sorry having insane ranged damage and spells is just freaky, staves of healing exist for end-game anyways, haven't played one since my first winner '05)

I think there is ticket for my suggestion to reverse rogue and ranger spell lists. Rogue should be more warrior-mage than ranger and ranger should be warrior with excellent shooting skills and only a few utility spells.

We could actually weaken rangers melee, maybe even reduce it to four blows like priest and mage.

Priests (but slower at killing things usually, so kinda boring often)

There are only a few things more satisfying than killing entire troll pit in four turns. Slower against single targets, much faster against multiple. At least for high-level priests.

Paladins, Mages, Rogues (these 3 are kinda same challenge but very different strengths, three very cool classes)

For some reason I find rogues most challenging. I don't actually know why. Paladins OTOH are way too easy to me, even easier than rangers and priests, and as such extremely boring.

Mages are weakest IMO. I find them just frustrating. Not challenging like rogues, it just feels that they should be able to do more.

Warriors, the cool class nothing wrong with them they hold their own with high melee dmg in the end, but ... the class doesn't inherently hold utility so relies more on item finds than any other class

That is right, but OTOH they do not need books, so there are more space in inventory for them to carry those items. They need food (scrolls of satisfy hunger or Elvish Waybread, I prefer Waybread, those are light and not vulnerable to anything, cure poison and heal you a bit), detection: 3 Rods, TO: wands and rods, healing: potions, phase door: scrolls. Teleport: scrolls, staves. Identify: scrolls, staves, rods. That's 7-12 items. About same count as magic books + essential potions, wands/rods and scrolls for rest of the classes.

[ewert]

I think there is ticket for my suggestion to reverse rogue and ranger spell lists. Rogue should be more warrior-mage than ranger and ranger should be warrior with excellent shooting skills and only a few utility spells.

We could actually weaken rangers melee, maybe even reduce it to four blows like priest and mage.

What do rangers get that rogues don't get in the spell list, aside more attack spells? As I said, it's been so long I've played rangers. Now that fizzix made that +might patch available, I might play one again. Anyways, I don't think much balancing will happen with reduced spell list, besides detect treasure is definitely rogue niche. =P

Also just as long as we bring ranger ranged (and ranged in general) back in line with other damage forms, I don't feel the need to reduce their melee after that. Currently it would not do much, since anything hard to kill would still be wiped off the face of Angband with arrows, and mages and priests melee inconsequential kills just as well as any other class, so it would not really do much at all to change ranger melee to 4 blows...

There are only a few things more satisfying than killing entire troll pit in four turns. Slower against single targets, much faster against multiple. At least for high-level priests.

Yeah, that's the "usually" part. It's fun. But, there are staves of power ... My mages end up carrying stacks of 3-4 staves of magi, 3-4 staves of healing, and 3 staves of power often. Holds true for any class, but normally I don't bother with power staves if can wipe pits with melee easily. And troll pits? Nah, wiping D pits is much more fun. Immunity helps, but I've done it without too with double resists. =P Hell I'm nuts, I've done U pits too sometimes. Russian roulette with the RNG a bit maybe...

For some reason I find rogues most challenging. I don't actually know why. Paladins OTOH are way too easy to me, even easier than rangers and priests, and as such extremely boring.

I rate them as same challenge, because IMHO all are awesome classes that I do great with. And totally different strengths, so need very different playstyles, but for me I don't have any troubles playing any of them. And I play my mages like mages (no archery ever really).

Mages are weakest IMO. I find them just frustrating. Not challenging like rogues, it just feels that they should be able to do more.

With the recent manacost change, I don't feel that anymore. If they had any more dmg/mana, I'd say they would be too easy almost. The dmg/mana is now a very fine line to tread, if it is upgraded at all anymore. It IS a more "restful" class though. But endgame mages, mwahahahahaaaaa.

That is right, but OTOH they do not need books, so there are more space in inventory for them to carry those items. They need food (scrolls of satisfy hunger or Elvish Waybread, I prefer Waybread, those are light and not vulnerable to anything, cure poison and heal you a bit), detection: 3 Rods, TO: wands and rods, healing: potions, phase door: scrolls. Teleport: scrolls, staves. Identify: scrolls, staves, rods. That's 7-12 items. About same count as magic books + essential potions, wands/rods and scrolls for rest of the classes.

Yep it is not an inventory problem, not really a problem either, just that they rely so much more on non-class items than any other class. But, their melee kicks ass, so who cares.