Why are Lanterns identified?

[Zababa]

I always thought that a lantern, which I perceive through detect treasure could be any of various types. Maybe a Lantern of Brightness or an Everburning one, but no, it was just the usual one. It could not be even identified any further.

I think it would be more fun when you see a lantern you don't know what is it going to be. I somehow hope there are many different lantern types, some possibly grant resistance to blindness, or see invisible, enhance infravision, grant telepathy, etc. but you just have to check yourself and identify the lantern first.

Or is it the case that there are just three types of lanterns and it is not worth to hide the full functionality. If you are lucky to find one, it can be only normal, everburning or one of brightness.

[Derakon]

I believe the answer is that lanterns have the EASY_KNOW flag so that you can always see how many turns of light they have left; as a side-effect, they're always auto-identified.

[Zikke]

I would think you can see immediately if it's an everburning lantern (there isn't any oil and it's on), or an extra bright lantern. Anything else is a normal lantern. You can see how many turns there are by checking the oil level visually.


Wait wait, when did reality come into play in this game?

[Magnate]

I would think you can see immediately if it's an everburning lantern (there isn't any oil and it's on), or an extra bright lantern. Anything else is a normal lantern.

Personally I think we should increase the number of lantern ego types and remove the EASY_KNOW flag. With the new ID-by-use code it would still be possible to reveal the pval (the amount of fuel remaining) without revealing the rest of the properties.

I'd also like to create randart lanterns, but that requires some fairly major surgery (http://trac.rephial.org/ticket/1014).

[Derakon]

ToME 2 has a bunch of ego lanterns; from what I recall they included:

* of Brightness
* of the Magi (+INT, SI, FA)
* of the Eagle's Eye (or something like that; activates for magic mapping)
* Dwarven (everburning)
* Feanorian (everburning, +1 radius)

Of course, adding some of these would mean that the phial is suddenly not nearly as interesting any more...

[bron]

As a fan of playing no-artifacts, I would love to see more/better ego lanterns, to help cover more resists/powers. The flip-side should be that such lanterns are not everburning, so if e.g. I want the lantern with rDark, or the one with SI/FA, then I need to worry about the oil. Admittedly, this is not really a problem, unless you are playing ironman. But I think that is as it should be.

[Zababa]

I personally would not mind if there were some everburning lantrens with resistances. They just need to be sufficiently rare.

[Hariolor]

ToME 2 has a bunch of ego lanterns; from what I recall they included:

* of Brightness
* of the Magi (+INT, SI, FA)
* of the Eagle's Eye (or something like that; activates for magic mapping)
* Dwarven (everburning)
* Feanorian (everburning, +1 radius)

Of course, adding some of these would mean that the phial is suddenly not nearly as interesting any more...

I think ego lanterns would be very cool.

Give the Phial rDark and maybe also rLight. After all, "near it darkness cannot long endure", right?

[Magnate]

I think ego lanterns would be very cool.

Give the Phial rDark and maybe also rLight. After all, "near it darkness cannot long endure", right?

Oooh that's a nice idea. Giving the Phial rdark would make for much more interesting randart Phials too. I'll get clobbered by the "making the game easier" crowd, but so what ....

[Derakon]

If we do add more properties to the Phial, then we should push its generation even deeper. Right now there's no reason not to use it when you find it, unless you've only found it after finding another artifact light source. We should be careful about making no-brainer artifacts more powerful.

Likewise, ego-item light sources should come with their own drawbacks, since otherwise they're "free" power boosts (possibly barring the Everburning and of Brightness egos, which are not significantly more powerful than baseline, particularly for Everburning). Off the top of my head:

* Drastically reduce the duration a light source lasts for. Right now I can fit three-four trips to the dungeon into one lantern refuel, which is silly IMO. The only reason I carry lantern oil into the dungeon is to use it as a throwing weapon. Make torches last for 2000 turns, and lanterns have a max fuel capacity of 1500 turns. Or something of that nature. Then fuel becomes a significant worry again...and of course, ironman games get completely screwed over. Oh, well.
* As above, but only do it for ego-items. So if you want the benefits of a light source that lets you see invisible, you have to deal with it burning out quickly.
* Bring in some of those mixed-blessing abilities that have been talked about before. Fire vulnerability, slightly reduced stealth or combat bonuses, reduced infravision (hey, you're standing right next to a big light and heat source), etc.

[nullfame]

If we do add more properties to the Phial, then we should push its generation even deeper.

I'm not disagreeing with this logic, but in that case I would vote for leave it alone. I would rather find it sooner than rDark.

I think making Phial harder to find hurts warriors more. At least for me light is a crucial part of the game. Phial guarantees I gain a slot by dropping illumination. Everyone else has call light. I prefer Phial to Star on a warrior: no light will get you killed, no map not as important. I prefer Phial to Arkenstone too: I'm probably devoting 2-4 slots to detection (treasure, evil, traps, doors/stairs, and all), Arkenstone's recharge means it isn't a suitable replacement for any of those, even if it was now I am packing illumination again.

Make torches last for 2000 turns, and lanterns have a max fuel capacity of 1500 turns. Or something of that nature.

I guess I would have to test to know for sure but that sounds a little extreme. 4000-5000 sounds a little more reasonable. But I get where you're going. Lantern light and food are more or less non-issues at a certain point.

Bring in some of those mixed-blessing abilities that have been talked about before. Fire vulnerability, slightly reduced stealth or combat bonuses, reduced infravision (hey, you're standing right next to a big light and heat source), etc.

All of these make sense to me on some level, except maybe reduced combat though I guess I could imagine it being so unwieldy. I can't imagine exposing myself to fire vulnerability, reduced stealth and combat are acceptable by class/situation, and I would probably sacrifice infravison without question once I had ESP. I like the idea though.

[Zababa]

I don't agree with Derakon. I think there is enough space for improved light sources in the game. There is a huge gap between lanterns and artifact light sources which can be filled with excellent or ego lanterns. In fact, some of the better lanterns proposed here could serve as weaker alternatives to the artifact light sources (can't be activated for special power).

Why do you want any of the artifact light sources to be a no-brainer? For other pieces of equipment there is a lot of excellent gear in the game, so you really have to be choosy about what you keep, why not light sources?

Derakon's proposal of shortening the burning time of torches and lanterns sounds interesting to me. I am not against it. Actually I think that the duration a light source would last without refuelling could be made variable. The specifications of lanterns and torches could be randomized in a way, that you would more frequently find lanterns and torches of shorter durations, but rarely something more lasting like the current ones. This, however, would require some playtestnig, especially from our ironman players. Light sources and fuel would have to appear just enough often for an ironman to play with them.

[buzzkill]

Light sources and fuel would have to appear just enough often for an ironman to play with them.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Ironman considerations should not enter into the Vanilla development discussion. If ironman get harder or even impossible, then all the more kudos to those who (nearly) beat it.

Also, where are the (sticky) cursed lanterns...
The beacon lantern that wakes and alerts all who may see it.
The lantern of shadows that make finding traps and doors nearly impossible.
The leaking lantern that occasionally burns you and your equipment.
The blue flame torch that provides just enough light to illuminate yourself and screw with your infra-vision. It can't be extinguished.

[NotMorgoth]

* As above, but only do it for ego-items. So if you want the benefits of a light source that lets you see invisible, you have to deal with it burning out quickly.

The flame that burns twice as bright burns half as long

[cinereaste]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Ironman considerations should not enter into the Vanilla development discussion. If ironman get harder or even impossible, then all the more kudos to those who (nearly) beat it.

Also, where are the (sticky) cursed lanterns...
The beacon lantern that wakes and alerts all who may see it.
The lantern of shadows that make finding traps and doors nearly impossible.
The leaking lantern that occasionally burns you and your equipment.
The blue flame torch that provides just enough light to illuminate yourself and screw with your infra-vision. It can't be extinguished.

I like all of these ideas. It always seemed strange to me how limited the lighting options were given how much variety there was in other equipment.