reducing detection importance?

[Hariolor]

A common theme on these boards, and an important lesson that I'm still learning, is just how critical it is to detect. So much so that if a priest or mage loses book 1 before getting a better means of detection, they may as well haul @$$ back to town and buy another because they're sitting ducks.

The end result is that most everyone macros up detection and spams it constantly. This seems a bit....ham handed.

While I realize it's a pretty low priority, all else considered, I am wondering if anyone had toyed with the idea of dramatically increasing the range for light sources and infravision.

I'm thinking triple the range for infravision, and maybe pentuple for light sources. This would effectively make the call light ability useless (except as a last ditch way to harm light-sensitives), but I think it would be a welcome change. It's always kind of irked me that standing in a room maybe 60' wide (ten squares, that is), my torchlight wouldn't even reach the walls. So I'm wondering if letting characters actually see their surroundings more than a couple squares out might make detect spamming slightly less necessary. Still useful, sure, so as to not get blindsided. But it'd at least reduce the risk of the dreaded off-screen breather nailing you.

As a twist (and I think this has been mentioned before) - darkness attacks could be changed to temporarily reduce the light radius of your items, rather than creating patches of easily remedied darkness...

[Sirridan]

I like the idea, but then again I don't. Light sources won't pierce walls, that monster around the corner still may breathe and destroy you. Call light is nice to have so the room stays lit after you leave, therefore showing monsters in there when you are far away. Also good for lighting up corners in tunnels for this reason, although I'm a bit lazy in this regard.

Detection does sometimes feel too necessary and un-fun though, but most of the time that constant feeling of danger is kind of exciting, and keeps one from making too many mistakes.

A change like this would definitely help the starting game go a bit smoother though, before detecting the pack of time hounds in a room you can't see yet becomes a necessity.

In the end really, decreasing the need for detection makes the game easier and may encourage lazier play. And High light radius would only be really useful to make sure the room you're in isn't being flooded by monsters while you're fighting something or travelling through. Although you shouldn't fight anything in a room in the first place. (Unless it takes one round to kill :P)

[Derakon]

Detection is important for far more than just knowing what enemies are coming for you:

* Enter the dungeon at 4900'
* Cast Detection.
* "Oh, hey, there's Gothmog and his escort of Greater Balrogs over there. Right, I'm not going anywhere near that place. And I think I see the corner of a graveyard at the edge of my detection. I'd really better avoid that, or else the already-awake Reavers will start making a beeline for me."
* Restrict your exploration to the comparatively safer zone not filled with ravening wall-eating demons and undead

An extended light source is in no way going to compensate for this. You need something on the order of telepathy at the very least -- it needs to be able to see through walls so you know which parts of the dungeon to outright avoid.

To make detection less necessary, you need to significantly reduce the cost of encountering monsters you didn't know were present. To my mind that means massively nerfing individual monsters' damage capabilities, and simultaneously nerfing the player's ability to recover from damage, to keep things balanced. When individual monsters are capable of dealing even 25% of your max HP in damage in a single ranged attack, the cost of not knowing what's around you is far too high.

[Tiburon Silverflame]

What I want is a total of 9 non-damageable spellbooks. Fine, in the stores leave the books as is if you want, but I'd love dungeon-only books that duplicate the spells in the basic books, but can't be harmed by fire or acid. I'd *really* love dungeon-only books that would let me drop down by 1 or 2 total book slots, but that would free up more inventory slots, which could be an issue.

But it's also true that indestructible books == less weight, which is mildly helpful. Still, I really hate walking around lugging a whole bloody library because I need all those duplicates.

[Sirridan]

We could make "ego" books?

Chants and Blessings of Resillience? -- (immune to elements)

Beginner's Spellbook (Phantom) -- (immune to elements, no weight)

[Derakon]

What if the indestructible versions had a minimum 5% failure rate on their spells? What if it was only 1%?

One of the big limiters on mage power in the early to mid game is that they're so heavily restricted, inventory-wise. Giving them indestructible town books would massively reduce that restriction, thereby making one of the most powerful classes even more powerful.

[Atarlost]

Having a 1% fail on phase door or teleport defeats the whole point of having them.

[fyonn]

We could make "ego" books?

Wrath of God (Holy Avenger) ?

Mordenkainen's Escapes of Morgul (heavily cursed)?

Ethereal Openings of Teleportation?

Actually, I don't think this is a terrible idea, well, maybe not books of Fury, Venom or Westernesse, but maybe "ethereal" or resistant.. I could see a priest book having "Hold Life" or a mage book glowing (adding to light radius, and of course, being readable in the dark). of course these wouldn't stack with normal books unless you find more of the same ego type.

dave

[Derakon]

Having a 1% fail on phase door or teleport defeats the whole point of having them.

Having played a winning game with a paladin (minimum 5% failure rate on all spells), this is manifestly not the case. You just have to get used to using the escape spells before the last minute, which you should be in any case.

Fyonn: having items of any kind that just sit in your inventory and give you passive benefits doesn't strike me as a great idea. Are we going to have warriors filling their inventory with Prayer Books of Damage?

[fyonn]

Having played a winning game with a paladin (minimum 5% failure rate on all spells), this is manifestly not the case. You just have to get used to using the escape spells before the last minute, which you should be in any case.

Fyonn: having items of any kind that just sit in your inventory and give you passive benefits doesn't strike me as a great idea. Are we going to have warriors filling their inventory with Prayer Books of Damage?

well, damage would not be a good one I think, in the same category as a book (defender). just knocking about Sirridans comment

[Sirridan]

Passive stat bonuses in inventory items isn't a terrible idea really, just make sure said bonuses are quite small.

Is +3 permanent to damage worth losing a slot for a swap item, a stack of staves/consumables/etc?

A big part of Angband is inventory management, so it could be interesting. Although my position isn't to give these kinds of bonuses on non-wearable items.

@fyonn How about Tesner's Transformations of Permanence?

[Derakon]

My point is that any ability that can be provided by just sticking an item into your inventory inevitably weakens the equipment management portion of the game, which is a huge part of dictating what you can and cannot safely do.

[fyonn]

My point is that any ability that can be provided by just sticking an item into your inventory inevitably weakens the equipment management portion of the game, which is a huge part of dictating what you can and cannot safely do.

well, my comments about magic books with the same ego's as weapons was just a jokey comment. I was more thinking about sirridans comment to do with books of resilience perhaps. ie dungeon versions of the first four books with some ability to withstand fire, or acid or whatever. or perhaps really light versions, ie ethereal books (to match the slippers, which have always seemed pointless as none of the footwear is particularly heavy). just thought it was worth discussing.

dave

[pav]

Other variants have fire-proof findable books and guess what - the universe haven't collapsed. It really is minor enough to not be worth the balance debate. Now get coding -- Pavtor made a feature request

[nullfame]

IMO this is only a problem for pure casters, and not very big of one at that. Once you hit stat gain you can find potions/rings of STR, and once you have some speed items encumbrance is non-lethal.

I am more familiar with mage-line but I think pure mages only need redundant cpoies of mb1 (probably only 2 copies at that), 1 copy of mb2 and mb3 before stat gain is enough since losing 1 isn't fatal, and mb4 isn't even relevant yet. I would drop mb3 if I needed to. Half casters don't need mb2-mb4 for quite a while. I prefered only carrying mb1, mb5 (resistance), and mb7 (doors) until the very end. Eventually mb4 became reliable for speed/teleport other and I wanted to melee drainers so had to drop staffs of teleport self.

Too many books? Carry fewer and stay away from things that breathe fire. Also wear less armor, especially shields. Steel Helm [+9] is worthless. Carry an extra book. If you are in melee something else is wrong.