Misc 3.1.2 Questions

[RogerN]

If the combat system has a flaw, then address the system. The whole strength-dex-weapon-weight chart system is bizarre in and of itself. It could be replaced with something simpler, more formulaic, more sensible and more robust.

A complete overhaul of the blows calculation would be my preference. Personally I'd put less emphasis on stats (although STR and DEX should still factor in) and more on character level, which currently isn't factored in at all. But even that would probably be controversial.

I would create a system in which # of blows increases linearly with character level, but STR and DEX also have limited effects.
- Use STR and possibly character class to calculate a "light weapon" limit and a "heavy weapon" limit
- If current weapon is classified as light, use DEX to apply a bonus (0 to 10?) to the character level which is used to calculate # of blows.
- Calculate number of blows based on character class and adjusted character level.
- If weapon was classified as heavy then reduce # of blows by at least 1, possibly more

[Nick]

One big difference with O-combat that no-one has mentioned is that everyone gets at least two blows. This evens things out a lot in the early game.

[RogerN]

One big difference with O-combat that no-one has mentioned is that everyone gets at least two blows. This evens things out a lot in the early game.

I've played so many variants which give a minimum of 2 blows that I'd forgotten Vanilla didn't do the same. It's a great improvement, IMO.

[Xaxyx]

A complete overhaul of the blows calculation would be my preference. Personally I'd put less emphasis on stats (although STR and DEX should still factor in) and more on character level, which currently isn't factored in at all. But even that would probably be controversial.

I would create a system in which # of blows increases linearly with character level, but STR and DEX also have limited effects.
- Use STR and possibly character class to calculate a "light weapon" limit and a "heavy weapon" limit
- If current weapon is classified as light, use DEX to apply a bonus (0 to 10?) to the character level which is used to calculate # of blows.
- Calculate number of blows based on character class and adjusted character level.
- If weapon was classified as heavy then reduce # of blows by at least 1, possibly more

It's not even necessary to make this classification, arguably. Consider this process:

a) Calculate number of blows based on strength, up to some particular weapon weight limit determined by that strength.

b) Calculate number of blows based on dex, inversely proportional to the weapon weight.

c) Whichever is greater of (a) or (b), that's how many blows he gets.

Hence, a high-dex character will get much more blows with a lightweight weapon than a heavy one, and will favor the lightweight weapon. Whereas, a strong character gets some blows either way, so will favor the heavier weapon.

Better still, we could just add (a) and (b) together, and make (b) horribly small, or even zero, for heavy weapons. That's simpler, and more intuitive.

But I'm still extremely partial to the idea that extra blows be less step-like and more fluid. Combat's already step-like enough, the way the speed system works. And it's always seemed silly to me that a character can gain a tiny bit in dex or strength and suddenly and permanently double his combat prowess, from both the stances of realism and game balance.

Consider this system, if you will:

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BLOWS

The number of blows your character receives each time you attack in melee combat is determined by your blow chance (BC). Your character's blow chance starts as 100. This blow chance may increase based on your character's strength, dexterity, class and level, as follows:

Strength: If your strength is higher than 18; and you aren't using a weapon that's too heavy for you; then half of your strength percentage is added to your blow chance. For example: if you have 18/50 strength, then you add 25 to your blow chance.

Dexterity: If your dexterity is higher than 18; and you aren't using a weapon that's too heavy for you; then your blow chance is increased by (dexterity percentage * 5) divided by the weapon's weight (minimum weight 10). For example: if you have an 18/50 dexterity, and you're wielding a weapon weighing 10 pounds or less, then you add (50 * 5) / 10 = 25 to your blow chance.

Class and level: Blow chance is increased by the following amounts, based on character class and level:

Mage: +1/level
Paladin: +4/level
Priest: +2/level
Ranger: +3/level
Rogue: +3/level
Warrior: +5/level

For example, a level 15 warrior adds 75 to his blow chance.

Once your character's blow chance is calculated, it is applied as follows. For each multiple of 100 of your blow chance, you receive one blow. The remainder represents a percentage chance of getting one additional blow. For example, a blow chance of 340 means three blows, plus a 40% chance of a fourth blow, each time the character attacks.
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So in this system that I just made up, a brand-spanking-new level 1 warrior with an 18/50 strength and a crappy dex could wield a weapon as heavy as 50 pounds and still receive an average of 1.3 blows per round. Conversely, a new level 1 rogue with an amazing dex and crappy strength could wield a weapon weighing 10 pounds or less and get around the same number of blows (1.28). And a number-crunching high-strength, high-dex ranger could choose between the same heavy weapon as the warrior (1.28 blows), or a lightweight weapon that won't hit as hard but will result in 1.53 blows.

Around level 10 or so, these characters will all reliably be getting around 2 blows per round, occasionally 3. Around level 25 or so, 3 blows, sometimes 4. And so forth. Once they start getting strength and/or dex potions, each increase in stats will have a small but noticeable effect. Eventually, this change will be less noticeable, as it's a smaller proportional increase in their blow rates.

At level 50, a warrior with 18/220 strength and dex could either wield a 50-pound monster at 4.82 blows per round, or a lightweight 10-pound gizmo at 5.7 blows per round. That's pretty close to how things work now. Tweak as necessary.

[Derakon]

If you want to smooth out the blows continuum, then instead of having a random chance of getting an extra blow, you should make each blow take a set amount of energy, which decreases as your STR/DEX/level/whatever increases. The current system charges you 100, 50, 33, 25, 20, etc energy per blow, depending on how many attacks per round you get. A "smoother" system would be able to charge any amount of energy, eliminating those huge steps. From a usability standpoint, each time you attack you could perform as many attacks as possible without costing more than 100 energy; or you could just do each attack one at a time (which in my experience isn't nearly so bad as it sounds).

I actually don't think that the logic for determining how you get extra blows is too bad. My recommended fix would be to cap +damage at the max damage dice of the weapon (so a dagger could never have more than +4 to damage) and then increase the dice of the heavier weapons.

[Hariolor]

One big difference with O-combat that no-one has mentioned is that everyone gets at least two blows. This evens things out a lot in the early game.

It certainly does!

As do special attacks/abilities (shield bash anyone?), and the AC bonus from polearms - while not perfect, O combat makes V pale by comparison...

...not that that'll keep me from playing V as well...

In fact, I'd suggest anyone who proposes changes to the V system learn how O does it first (other variants may be similar), and then use *that* as a springboard for rehashing V.

[Derakon]

I think O is a bit too radical, personally. Particularly the "deadliness" percentages are rather opaque. V's system has the overwhelming advantage of easy-to-calculate damage. It's very obvious how two different weapons compare and what you can do to increase your damage. O is nice, yes, but I don't think it should be imported into V.

[Magnate]

If you want to smooth out the blows continuum, then instead of having a random chance of getting an extra blow, you should make each blow take a set amount of energy, which decreases as your STR/DEX/level/whatever increases. The current system charges you 100, 50, 33, 25, 20, etc energy per blow, depending on how many attacks per round you get. A "smoother" system would be able to charge any amount of energy, eliminating those huge steps. From a usability standpoint, each time you attack you could perform as many attacks as possible without costing more than 100 energy; or you could just do each attack one at a time (which in my experience isn't nearly so bad as it sounds).

This is exactly my proposal for "fractional" blows - a smooth progression of decreasing energy-per-blow cost. See ticket #987 on trac.rephial.org.

[Xaxyx]

Steadily decreasing cost per blow does seem like an apt solution. It also mimics the current implementation of the ranged attack rate for Rangers (which also could be made to be a smooth curve, rather than the current step pattern at 20 and 40).

[Colbey]

I really like the idea of DEX only increasing blows for particularly light weapons, and STR only affecting blows for heavy ones (where "light" and "heavy" are of course relative to various things).

[Donald Jonker]

Another remedy might be to give high STR chars a hefty +to_hit bonus with heavy weapons (maybe eventually reaching 0% miss?). That, with a heavy weapon damage buff could make up some difference. It also makes more intuitive/thematic sense than giving more blows/round.

Part of the reason I always go for more blows is that you're much more likely to hit something with more iterations.

[Magnate]

Another remedy might be to give high STR chars a hefty +to_hit bonus with heavy weapons (maybe eventually reaching 0% miss?). That, with a heavy weapon damage buff could make up some difference. It also makes more intuitive/thematic sense than giving more blows/round.

Part of the reason I always go for more blows is that you're much more likely to hit something with more iterations.

While I don't disagree with your challenge to the D&D hangover of 5% min miss chance, I don't think pure STR should achieve better. Very strong people can be hopelessly inaccurate - personally I think there should be quite a low cap on +to_hit from STR - something like weapon weight / 2 or so.

I do think that STR should be more important in the calculation of energy-per-blow for heavy weapons. I'm working on a formula for energy per blow which I hope to post for comments soon.