Why are artifacts indestructable?

[fizzix]

I think the indestructability of artifacts is a holdover from the days where preserve mode wasn't an option and certainly before it was a default. As of now, there are ways to destruct artifacts but they don't make much sense (leave it on the floor when you leave the level, sell in a store)

I think this makes little common sense and more importantly has a negative effect on gameplay. Here are the problems I see with the current way artifacts are handled.

1. Destroying items is a test for artifacts
2. Failure to destruct gives the {special} pseudo even if the item has not been picked up. I don't actually know if this artifact will reappear.
3. *destruction* does not remove artifacts allowing for an easy way to take the best loot out of a greater vault with no danger.

I propose the following changes.

1. Allow artifacts to be destroyed like anything else.
2. Artifacts that are ID'd (wielded, thrown or anything) and left on the level or in town can reappear in the dungeon.
3. Artifacts sold to a store are gone forever *or* don't allow the sale of artifacts.
4. Keep a list of destoyed/sold artifacts (i.e. museum. Player history pretty much takes care of this already)
5. Artifacts in a destruction zone disappear from the level, but can be regenerated, like any other artifact. (earthquakes do not affect artifacts)

I think this removes the majority of dissonances from the current way artifacts are handled. It leaves (at least) one glaring problem though. How do you deal with artifacts that are modified from their original form. If they were enchanted, disenchanted, or uncursed and get left in the dungeon, if you find them again, are they in their original form or in the modified form?

[tummychow]

I'd say that artifacts should only be destructable if they keep their status of being impossible to destroy by attacks (like getting burned up or something). That's a given though.
I'd also say that artifacts should respawn as they were before - they recover their original state. I dislke the idea of artifacts being permanently disenchanted even though it could be possible.

[konijn_]

I think the indestructability of artifacts is a holdover from the days where preserve mode wasn't an option and certainly before it was a default. As of now, there are ways to destruct artifacts but they don't make much sense (leave it on the floor when you leave the level, sell in a store)

I think this makes little common sense and more importantly has a negative effect on gameplay. Here are the problems I see with the current way artifacts are handled.
<snip>

You proposed changes would make the game more realistic and harder/longer to play. Needless to say, I don't really like them

T.

[fizzix]

You proposed changes would make the game more realistic and harder/longer to play. Needless to say, I don't really like them

T.

I don't see any real increase in difficulty except for changing the way destruction works. Personally, I think this is an abuse anyway.

I think destroying items to find artifacts is a faulty game mechanism. However, I think recognizing artifacts on pickup, or remaking heavy curses so that wield testing is more reasonable are perfectly good options.

[PowerDiver]

I think there might be a ticket for artifacts being sensed on pickup. If that gets implemented, there is no reason for testing using destruction.

[Derakon]

If artifacts get sensed on pickup, then my only remaining concern is monsters that can crush items as they move. That would need to "remove" the artifact ŕ la Destruction, not actually destroy it, or else a rogue elemental in a vault could permanently remove gear from your options without you even realizing it...

[Pete Mack]

A rogue elemental in a vault could permanently remove gear from your options without you even realizing it...

That's way too harsh, even then.

If a rogue elemental destroys all the artifacts in a (partial) vault, what's the point of going in anyway? Even if it's possible to destroy artifacts--of which I am not at all convinced--they should only be destroyed by player actions.

[fizzix]

That's way too harsh, even then.

If a rogue elemental destroys all the artifacts in a (partial) vault, what's the point of going in anyway? Even if it's possible to destroy artifacts--of which I am not at all convinced--they should only be destroyed by player actions.

I agree with this.


@derakon I don't understand why 'sensing on pickup' leads to 'artifacts should be destroyable by monsters.' Can you explain why one implies the other?

[Derakon]

I agree with this. @derakon I don't understand why 'sensing on pickup' leads to 'artifacts should be destroyable by monsters.' Can you explain why one implies the other?

I'll admit I didn't explain my logic fully. Basically, it goes like this:

* The reason why artifacts can't be destroyed is so they can easily be recognized by people who are destroying all gear they find.
* If artifacts are sensed on pickup (or ideally on entering the tile they're on, for players that interact with stacks on the floor), then you no longer need to try to destroy them to recognize them. Thus it's OK for artifacts to be destructible...
* ...except that there are monsters that can destroy artifacts (and, for that matter, spell effects). That could lead to players losing artifacts they didn't even know they "had", which is bad.

In short, as long as the only ways to destroy artifacts are a) by selling them, and b) by using the 'k' command, I'm fine with artifacts being destructible.

[Zikke]

I don't think that the reason artifacts are indestructible is so people can easily find them. I think destroying items to find them is a result of the fact that they are indestructible.

[PowerDiver]

I don't think that the reason artifacts are indestructible is so people can easily find them. I think destroying items to find them is a result of the fact that they are indestructible.

It goes back to "no stacking". Essentially, there used to be an implicit "squelch all non-artifacts when the floor gets cluttered".

[konijn_]

I don't see any real increase in difficulty except for changing the way destruction works. Personally, I think this is an abuse anyway.

I think destroying items to find artifacts is a faulty game mechanism. However, I think recognizing artifacts on pickup, or remaking heavy curses so that wield testing is more reasonable are perfectly good options.

Hmmm, the day you see Bladeturner destroyed by an earthquake, you will realize that 'might be generated again' just aint good enough an alternative.

T.

[fizzix]

Hmmm, the day you see Bladeturner destroyed by an earthquake, you will realize that 'might be generated again' just aint good enough an alternative.

T.

Earthquakes shouldn't destroy artifacts. You can't let monsters destroy them in any way, so earthquake destruction is out. Using earthquakes to clear monsters in vaults is futile, so the same abuse is not available with that spell. *destruction* is an entirely different story.

The only way to destroy an artifact would be to kill it with k or to sell it to a shop (or, possibly, leave it in town). The only way to remove it from the level, without destroying it would be to use *destruction*.

Edit: Bladeturner showing up in a randarts game would be spectacularly coincidental indeed.

[HallucinationMushroom]

I rather like that artifacts cannot be destroyed. Save for the One Ring, I suppose anything could be unmade, but I'd like to think that artifacts were made to endure, even destruction spells, and most certainly anything a character could do in one turn using the 'k' command. On a non-gameplay mechanic defense: Artifacts that can't be destroyed r_kool.

If the real root of the problem is that it's seriously lame to destruct over and over again to rob a greater vault of several artifacts, then make vault walls immune to destruction, if they aren't already. I'm so used to playing variants with destruct-proof vaults that the idea of one not being so is very strange.

[Derakon]

The vault walls are proof against Destruction, but everything inside the vault is fair game (and you can change non-wall sections inside the vault into walls using Destruction and Earthquake effects).