Blows calculation for warriors

[Derakon]

It seems like it would be a major annoyance, but I don't recall it being a huge issue in Cthangband, which did it. Granted that was years ago, so maybe my memory is faulty; however, I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand. It seems like it should be a straightforward change once any form of fractional blows is implemented, and would be worth testing.

[PowerDiver]

You said it! It's possible (and even worthwhile) for a Ranger to kill Smaug with an longbow(+9,+9) and a big stack of enchanted arrows. But it sure is tedious...

I'd like to apply the same paradigm to firing arrows, but ego ammo is too valuable. I know that I at least pick the ammo for each shot separately and carefully. If we ever switch to having all enchantments be on launchers, then repeated firing of identical ammo would follow, but that seems unlikely.

[Pete Mack]

The problem is keyclicks. If you have 4 attacks, and the same-speed monster has 4 attacks, that kind of change increases the keyclicks by a factor of 4 and would be a severe annoyance. At some point, gameplay trumps reasonability and consistency.

You said it! It's possible (and even worthwhile) for a Ranger to kill Smaug with an longbow(+9,+9) and a big stack of enchanted arrows. But it sure is tedious...

[PowerDiver]

Derakon's suggestion seems reasonable at face value, however I have no idea how difficult it would be to implement, or whether it's worth it.

The problem is keyclicks. If you have 4 attacks, and the same-speed monster has 4 attacks, that kind of change increases the keyclicks by a factor of 4 and would be a severe annoyance. At some point, gameplay trumps reasonability and consistency.

[fizzix]

No, it goes 4 then M moves, repeat. You use 25 energy with each blow waiting for M to regain the 100 energy he needs to move, and then he uses it all at once. I am assuming that monsters always use 100 energy per action, getting their full complement of blows if using melee.

It's inconsistent between player vs monster, but everything is inconsistent player vs monster, so that doesn't bother me.

Ok. I just misread you then.

I had thought about this inconsistency a while back and never came up with a good solution and was hoping that you had some clever trick.

Derakon's suggestion seems reasonable at face value, however I have no idea how difficult it would be to implement, or whether it's worth it.

[Derakon]

Alternatively, monsters could remember the attack they used last time, and cycle to the next attack when they next get to attack. I suppose this could be theoretically abusable in that you know what attack they'll use next in melee, but I can't think of any applications that wouldn't be more trouble than they're worth.

[PowerDiver]

I don't understand this part. Let's say you are moving the same speed as Morgoth and you have 4 blows per round. Morgoth also has 4 blows. Do you attack all 4 and then Morgoth attacks all four, or do they interleave? If they interleave, it seems that this is ripe for abuse. You attack, Morgoth hits to shatter. You attack, Morgoth hits to shatter, you ?phase, Morgoth doesn't drain your charges.

I guess you could randomize the attack choice, but that's also unsatisfying, because you could get unlucky and have a GMM kick you 4 times in a row for ridiculous stunning and instant death.

No, it goes 4 then M moves, repeat. You use 25 energy with each blow waiting for M to regain the 100 energy he needs to move, and then he uses it all at once. I am assuming that monsters always use 100 energy per action, getting their full complement of blows if using melee.

It's inconsistent between player vs monster, but everything is inconsistent player vs monster, so that doesn't bother me.

[fizzix]

This would stop double-moves during melee. You would get 7 blows evenly spread out throughout your double-speed opponent's 4 moves. This would also eliminate hack-and-back, because against a half-speed opp you would get 7 blows between its attacks.

I don't understand this part. Let's say you are moving the same speed as Morgoth and you have 4 blows per round. Morgoth also has 4 blows. Do you attack all 4 and then Morgoth attacks all four, or do they interleave? If they interleave, it seems that this is ripe for abuse. You attack, Morgoth hits to shatter. You attack, Morgoth hits to shatter, you ?phase, Morgoth doesn't drain your charges.

I guess you could randomize the attack choice, but that's also unsatisfying, because you could get unlucky and have a GMM kick you 4 times in a row for ridiculous stunning and instant death.

[Pete Mack]

When you are at speed +20 with 5 blows, you will be killing each orc with a single blow so that's not really a problem.

There already is a version of this in other variants, called spread blows, which is granted to warriors around dl 25. After a monster is killed, you are given your remaining blows to attack something else (like a mob of surrounding orcs--one or two blows each, while the next 8 move in.)

I agree it is feasible, and desirable. (I was mostly playing devil's advocate to make the wheel squeek some more. And any other appropriate metaphors I might add to the mix.)

[PowerDiver]

Eddie--I don't think that would work, quite. Imagine you're in the entrance of an orc pit, with 80 orcs all at slightly different time offsets. Even if you are at speed +20, there will be almost one monster move per blow, on average (assuming 5 blows.)

But I do like the basic idea.

When you are at speed +20 with 5 blows, you will be killing each orc with a single blow so that's not really a problem. More seriously ...

That's what I meant by "There might need to be a way to say to do a full round despite disturbance". Perhaps the run command at an adjacent monster could mean that.

Another option is multiple disturbance modes. E.g. a monster moving in LOS only disturbs if it has a distance attack that can reach you, during your repeated melee phase. There are certainly details to be worked out. I think it should be feasible, but only playtesting will answer that.

[Pete Mack]

Eddie--I don't think that would work, quite. Imagine you're in the entrance of an orc pit, with 80 orcs all at slightly different time offsets. Even if you are at speed +20, there will be almost one monster move per blow, on average (assuming 5 blows.)

But I do like the basic idea.

[PowerDiver]

Fractional blows? How exactly? Hit until you have exhausted your blows or oppnent is killed (minimal impact to gameplay, unless fighting multiple weak opponents), or each blow separately (like missile-weapons)?

The way I would do it is that when you melee, you are in repeat mode. Each blow takes 100/numblows energy. So say you have 3.5 blows, each would use 29 energy.

Then, you repeat until disturbed, probably by the monster moving. When disturbed, you will have at least 100-29 = 71 energy. There might need to be a way to say to do a full round despite disturbance, but that would wait for playtesting.

This would stop double-moves during melee. You would get 7 blows evenly spread out throughout your double-speed opponent's 4 moves. This would also eliminate hack-and-back, because against a half-speed opp you would get 7 blows between its attacks.

[Derakon]

Random chances of extra blows would render the speed calculations unpredictable, and knowing when you and your opponents are next going to get a turn is an important part of gameplay. If you did the "one direction push = one blow" approach then you could just gradually decrease the amount of energy needed for each blow, though. Maximum of 100 energy, minimum of 16 energy (6 blows/round), could take anywhere in-between depending on your gear.

[TJS]

Ah I thought (and was hoping) fractional blows was that for example between getting 1 and 2 blows for a weapon you get a percentage chance of another blow depending on how close you are to getting that second blow.

Is there any chance of getting that implemented as well?

[d_m]

Fractional blows? How exactly? Hit until you have exhausted your blows or oppnent is killed (minimal impact to gameplay, unless fighting multiple weak opponents)

The first. Everyone agrees (I think) that divying up individual blows would get really tiresome.