Cure wounds too strong

[Pete Mack]

I'm playing a 1000HP rogue right now, and he might as well be a Paladin--just went from cl 45 to 47 without resting.

I started with a stack of 30 !CCW. Ran out of that fighting demon summons, and thought it was time to run. Then I tried *CLW spell. That brought me back to a comfortable 750 HP; continued to get 5000+ EXP/3 moves for something like 500 moves. (Needed to haste self three times.)

Took out
Maeglin
Ren
Pazuzu
Dwar

3 Bile Demon
20 Hezrou
20 Barbazu
1 Pit Field
5 Archon

Of course, weapon swaps for acid immunity and electricity immunity helped vs the Bile Demons and Pazuzu, but still. (I healed up to ~3/4 health with *CLW while scratching Pazuzu to death with Taratol.)

EDIT:

http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=9753

[Hariolor]

I discovered the power of CLW and used it to ultimately beat M pretty easily.

Phase door, CLWx3, melee, rinse, repeat

It might be better to change the % HP recovery to something like base+dice of healing? This would preserve the minimum benefit of the spells, while more effectively creating a cap on the weaker spells.

[Magnate]

I discovered the power of CLW and used it to ultimately beat M pretty easily.

Phase door, CLWx3, melee, rinse, repeat

It might be better to change the % HP recovery to something like base+dice of healing? This would preserve the minimum benefit of the spells, while more effectively creating a cap on the weaker spells.

Ok, here's a different view: I much prefer CLW as 15% from the utterly pointless 4d8 it was before. It's the only healing spell for all three mage-casters, so it's nice that it stays useful throughout the game. 150hp for a 1000hp character is not much. (Actually it's 15% of wounds, not of hp, so it's more like 100hp max.) If you have time to cast it three times during the battle with M, more power to you.

So yes, it's different. But IMO it's not overpowered.

[Pete Mack]

The trouble isn't using CLW vs M. Healing vs M is pretty much a given (if nothing else, using a huge stack of !CCW.)

The trouble is, if you have enough HP, you can use *CLW for endurance in long battles with chain summons and the like. 100-150HP is plenty for this. That's the realm of Paladins; Rogues have no business doing it.
I used to use CLW for two things:
* Keeping a weak character from dying due to poison, cuts, etc.
* Healing quickly while resting in a big fight with a single monster (unique)

It's a very different spell now. (I agree, for the Priest spell, the current model is great. But I think it makes mage-casters too much like priests.)

[Magnate]

It's a very different spell now. (I agree, for the Priest spell, the current model is great. But I think it makes mage-casters too much like priests.)

Hmmm. I see your point here - but I would rather change priests to be different than re-nerf CLW for mage-casters. Definitely one to take away and think about.

[Tobias]

Well, a better ( and more difficult) solution might come up in the course of the missile/melee/spell rebalance effort.

Basically a caster should have better things to do with her manna than casting CLW.
That a rouge, a paladin and a warrior with a stash of -Healing play alike is not really surprising as all 3 are primary melee types.

[Magnate]

Well, a better ( and more difficult) solution might come up in the course of the missile/melee/spell rebalance effort.

Basically a caster should have better things to do with her manna than casting CLW.
That a rouge, a paladin and a warrior with a stash of -Healing play alike is not really surprising as all 3 are primary melee types.

This is excellently put. I would indeed hope that nerfing CLW would be unnecessary after melee, archery and spell damage are balanced.

[PowerDiver]

This is excellently put. I would indeed hope that nerfing CLW would be unnecessary after melee, archery and spell damage are balanced.

Four new clw are more powerful than a heal if you are down over 600 hp. Nothing about anything else will change that. You cannot make it useful without it being unbalancing. That's true of many things in the game.

[Magnate]

Four new clw are more powerful than a heal if you are down over 600 hp. Nothing about anything else will change that. You cannot make it useful without it being unbalancing. That's true of many things in the game.

Four turns is a whole different proposition to one turn - that seems like a fair trade-off to me.

[Derakon]

I'd rather see a spell be useful and unbalanced than useless, though of course useful and balanced is to be preferred.

It sounds like the problem is that CLW heals enough that you don't have to leave combat to use it. Maybe if it were set to heal 10% of total HP? That seems to be on the order of the amount of damage you can expect to take in melee combat against most enemies, which means that casting the spell while in melee wouldn't accomplish much; however, it'd still be worth casting if you get a break from the fight.

[Pete Mack]

Four turns is a whole different proposition to one turn - that seems like a fair trade-off to me.

It's a single phase door in a maze of twisty passages. And it doesn't always take 4 turns. It takes only 1 to sustain fighting strength (~500HP) for a strong character in a battle of attrition. That's the real advantage of Paladins--not being able to heal in a single fight, which anyone can do with enough !CCW, but being able to fight effectively indefinitely against endless waves of monsters.

If you want it to scale, give it maybe 50 HP max, or make it use mana proportional to HP recovered. (Less than 10 casts total.)

[buzzkill]

What not just have different versions of the 'cure spells' for different classes. Change the mana cost, fail rate and effectiveness, or am I missing the point?

[PowerDiver]

What not just have different versions of the 'cure spells' for different classes. Change the mana cost, fail rate and effectiveness, or am I missing the point?

Changing the mana cost on CLW to about 500 would work.

Improved CLW is good for the potions, which take a slot. Mage casters simply should not get any cure spell at all. Let the classes be distinct.

[cofresi]

IIRC, the reason mages were given CLW was because they died easily to cuts and wound spells without a means to stop 'the bleeding'. This would be several versions of V ago.

A solution would be to downgrade the spell to a 'basic aid' or 'mending' spell which heals cuts but only heals 5-10% of hp with a minimum of 15 for old times sake. Maybe the spell can heal a variable rate of 5-15% thus it could not be relied upon for steady heals.

The idea of a mage spell called CLW was never to my liking so a rebranding of the spell to a 'herbal healing' seems more fitting. Leave CLW to healers.

[buzzkill]

IIRC, the reason mages were given CLW was because they died easily to cuts and wound spells without a means to stop 'the bleeding'. This would be several versions of V ago.

Shouldn't they carry potions to accomplish this, instead of having a spell?