feature discussion - halve mage damage mana

[konijn_]

It sounds like the problem you're having, Nightmarjoo, is that killing things with magic isn't very interesting (to you, anyway). Why would you say that is the case?

Keep in mind also that your use case (dive to 98, and do all your powering up there) is atypical and effectively skips most of the spells that are affected by this change. I see the big changes as being that frost bolt, fire bolt, etc. would actually be worth casting for general damage, instead of being a "dump most of my mana at the enemy before he enters melee range" type of thing.

Interesting. For Hellband I am considering for both launchers and bolt/storm spells ( gesture component ) that you cannot cast them when monsters are adjacent. I've been test playing this and it works ok for me. I want mages to do more than use a set of macro's to cast spells, I want them to either phase out or use combat, not keep blasting mindlessly because they have the mana and they are safely in their ASC. Maybe it'll be an option

[PowerDiver]

Just seems like the proposed changes could make a mage too easy.

Are you talking about the mana cost changes, or other changes?

Which uniques or other memorable foes did you not kill on your dive down that you would have killed with halved mana cost on your damage spells?

[Nightmarjoo]

Are you talking about the mana cost changes, or other changes?

Which uniques or other memorable foes did you not kill on your dive down that you would have killed with halved mana cost on your damage spells?

Mm mana cost changes, particularly if combined with other changes.

I don't remember the game too explicitely, but mostly it seemed to me that attack magic was useless until raal, at which point sound wave and ice storm only for their stunning effect were useful. Used cloud kill here and there to kill weaklings, only because it doesn't destroy loot. Rift was useful down hallways or whenever something was in the way of my target. Chaos strike was useful here and there because it had a chance to confuse. Mostly, detection and escape spells, genocide, resistance and shield were the most useful spells. And because of this, until I got sound wave I couldn't really rely on my magic to kill foes, so the dungeon was pretty scary. I guess, what I'm trying to say, is that if halfing mana requirements has any effect (which it easily could fail to do in my eyes, without additional damage tweaks), it would be to make killing scary stuff easier, or atleast possible. I think that's a big deal, because it seems to unwrap the concept of a mage as a character in angband, the character hillariously weak initially who becomes incredibly strong later on.

The more I type the more unsure I feel about what I'm saying, I think I want to play out halved mana before making any more poor theory crafting on the topic. I see what you're saying about how this only matters in the context I'm saying it does if it allows the mage to kill or fight things he normally couldn't at a certain level/depth, and I suppose I can't say that it does for most of the game. At shallower depths however I can see killing things like orcs become easier, making it easier to get objects dropped as well as an experience well to draw from, but maybe this is a desireable effect.

I think my experience with a mage is somewhat atypical in that I got an awesome randart weapon that I almost used against Morgoth (could've if I'd wanted to), early on when I killed Smeagol. So I could melee things that I'd normally have to run from or use arrows on. My weapon made the reliance on arrows and bolt magic much less early on (my lack of Con later on restored this need somewhat), and perhaps making bolt magic more reliable could have the same effect, which I think could be good. Sorry if my post is all over the place, just typing whatever comes to mind, not very succinct ._.


tl;dr ok let's see it in action and see how it fares.

[Atarlost]

I don't think weak early/strong late is a desirable trait for a single player game. It sort of made sense in the multiplayer world of tabletop gaming where the party was rewarded for keeping the fragile classes alive through the early levels with having high level mage party members later, but in single player if you're able to keep a slow starter alive early you don't need that power later as much as someone who can't keep a slow starter alive early.

Mages should play differently from other classes, but they shouldn't hew to an outdated power curve from multiplayer or multi-avatar gaming. Either mages should be modeled on Raistlin and never ever consider anything but magic or they should be based on Gandalf and happily hack things up with swords, or something in between, but they shouldn't shift from one to the other.

[fizzix]

Mages should play differently from other classes, but they shouldn't hew to an outdated power curve from multiplayer or multi-avatar gaming. Either mages should be modeled on Raistlin and never ever consider anything but magic or they should be based on Gandalf and happily hack things up with swords, or something in between, but they shouldn't shift from one to the other.

I agree to the first statement, about not shoehorning mages into a predetermined mold. However, I think I disagree strongly on the second. (Caveat: I have no idea who Raistlin is, and I'm too lazy to look it up)

I think making mages an 'always spells, all the time' class is a poor choice because it limits the replayability. With combat and archery you have a very large variety in what is available, depending on the RNG. With spells you only have two variables, how much Int you get and when you get the books. Mages should default to spells as a primary mode of damage, with the knowledge that a very good weapon, launcher and gear should convince them to adjust accordingly. The current problem is that archery always proved superior to spells for damage.

[Derakon]

What if the mage had access to weapons that enhanced certain of their spells but not others? So depending on the gear he finds, a mage might end up focusing on fire spells or frost spells, for example.

[will_asher]

(Caveat: I have no idea who Raistlin is, and I'm too lazy to look it up)

Raistlin Majere is a fictional character from the Dragonlance series of books created by Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman. Raistlin played an extensive role in the two main series of books, particularly in Dragonlance: Legends in which he was both primary protagonist and antagonist. ..He undertook the ardurous Test of Sorcery, which he passed but was cursed with golden skin, hourglass eyes forced to see the effects of time on all things, and a ruined, broken health accompanied by frequent bouts of bloody coughing. Initially wearing the red robes of neutrality, as the first series progresses Raistlin's powers increase while his mood and actions darken, adopting the black robes of an evil wizard part-way through the War of the Lance. During Legends, Raistlin plans to move backwards in time to challenge the legendary wizard Fistandantilus and ultimately the evil goddess Takhisis to become a god himself.
(Wikipedia)

cause I felt like it

[Atarlost]

More to the point he's even worse at nonmagical combat than a typical D&D mage because his CON sucks, but is perhaps a contender for the title of the most powerful mage in fiction.

So basically able to kill gods with magic, but unable to handle an angry pigeon without it. Contrast with Gandalf, who has more kills in melee combat than with spells.

Maybe a better example of the pure mage for this forum would have been Luthien: no melee recorded at all, but able to put everyone in Angband, including Morgoth, to sleep with a single spell.

[Tobias]

I have been playing with this changes a little now.
They make a mage much more mage like. I use my bow only for the resist all guys, and even there I often just T_away.

On a different note It might really make a mage with 2 rings of escaping permanently equipped a uesefull build.
I tried it once before but ran out of mana to early in the fights. But until I used up my Mushrooms of Debility this mage was rocking.
Now you can play a really cowardly mage ( if you have one or two early int gains, to increase casting chances), until the real speed items show up.


On another note, I think selling !Mana or even Mushrooms of Debility at the general store would have had the same effect on the Mages playstyle.

[Derakon]

I don't think selling mana recovery items is a great idea, mostly because then the player can stock up on them and never run out of mana again. It basically makes the mana pool irrelevant as soon as gold becomes irrelevant, for the player who is willing to townscum to stock up on the potions. And as I've mentioned before, townscumming is tedius and the game should not reward tedium.

Doesn't being afraid increase your spell failure rates?

[PowerDiver]

I have been playing with this changes a little now.
They make a mage much more mage like. I use my bow only for the resist all guys, and even there I often just T_away.

I too have been trying it out, and I find that I still mostly use arrows or elec beam. That is in the time before MB6 comes into play.

A few times I used the elemental spells for the additional damage, but for the most part I wanted the mana for something else. So instead of a "never consider", it is now "always consider, rarely use" which seems fine to me.

It almost got me killed when I thought I could go after a death knight with fire bolts. That was a mistake!

Again, this is all before CL 30, but I found a haradrim xbow not too long after MB6, so my launcher damage doubled, so I expect the trend to continue.

[konijn_]

<Snip>but in single player if you're able to keep a slow starter alive early you don't need that power later as much as someone who can't keep a slow starter alive early.

That is so not true
I can play dlevel1 -> dlevel 30 perfectly, even with a very fragile character, after that I just tend to die. A slow starter , powerful ender is exactly what I need with my current skills in banding.

T.

[fizzix]

Again, this is all before CL 30, but I found a haradrim xbow not too long after MB6, so my launcher damage doubled, so I expect the trend to continue.

I think the mage changes need to be in conjunction with removing branding spells from them and nerfing archery a bit overall.

Branded arrows + good launcher should still do more damage than spells. It should just cost you your good ammo.

It's a fine line between having to choose spell vs. archery and being forced into one or the other. If the choice is always spell, the mage is the most boring class imaginable. At least with archery, you get the randomness of what launcher and ammo you find.

[PowerDiver]

My comments were in the context of using average ammo. Only ego ammo so far are shots, stored at home.

[fizzix]

My comments were in the context of using average ammo. Only ego ammo so far are shots, stored at home.

I assumed that. I also assume Haradrim xbow is pretty rare, and you were lucky to find it. Maybe that's a bad assumption?