Overloaded quiver issue fixed in r1827

[d_m]

I tracked down and fixed the bug Psi caught about wielding into the quiver when it's full--the issue causing ammo to disappear is fixed.

There is a small buglet left--I added the ring interface for asking which ammo should be removed. You might imagine that your new ammo will go into that slot, but currently it won't, due to the design of wield_item(). Instead it will go into the last slot.

I plan to fix this soon, but since this bug is actually kind of bad and it's replaced with a very minor bug I figure I should check in and announce it now.

NOTE: The Overpowered quiver issue is still open!

[PowerDiver]

NOTE: The Overpowered quiver issue is still open!

Well, for starters, I suggesting reduce each slot to 10 pieces of ammo. The serious annoyance is deciding to throw away the last 3 lightning arrows because they are not worth a slot, and that would still be avoided. If you wield a stack 25 arrows, it would take up 3 slots.

It's probably still overpowered if you are not taking away any backpack slots, but at least I won't be carrying 2 * 99 of each fire/cold/poison branded ammo by default.

[Derakon]

I suggest just limiting the total capacity of the quiver in absolute number of projectile, e.g. making it so it can only hold 100 arrows. That seems like the sensible way to fix the problem it's trying to solve. If you try to limit the number of items that can fit in each slot, then you get into weird stacking issues (and basically have to break stack recombination within the quiver), and I don't really like to contemplate the idea of a given item taking up multiple slots based on how big its stack is.

Just make it so that when you have 90 arrows in your quiver and try to add a stack of 25 to it, only 10 of the 25 get added. And if the quiver's full, you get an error message. Seems simple enough to me.

[PowerDiver]

I agree that's a lot cleaner than what I suggested.

[fizzix]

right now it is not possible to fire anything that isn't in the quiver. If the quiver slots were limited to 100 total (reasonable) then can you also allow the player to fire from the backpack slots?

as in f defaults to quiver but using / brings you to the backpack. Or will this make it overpowered again?

[Philip]

What if each pack of 75 arrows has to take up an inventory slot?

[Psi]

What if each pack of 75 arrows has to take up an inventory slot?

That is close to how FA does it. Every 99 pieces of ammo takes up an additional inventory slot. Therefore 1-99 - one slot 100-198 - two slots etc.

[Psi]

right now it is not possible to fire anything that isn't in the quiver.

Is that true? Hadn't spotted that.

[fizzix]

Is that true? Hadn't spotted that.

Apparently not. I think when I tried it out, I accidentally took off incompatible ammo. ho-hum. nothing to see here...

[Magnate]

That is close to how FA does it. Every 99 pieces of ammo takes up an additional inventory slot. Therefore 1-99 - one slot 100-198 - two slots etc.

This is the same implementation used in NPP and S, and I think it's the one we should use: it means that the quiver isn't giving or taking away any space, it's just allowing up to ten non-stackable ammo types in one to ten slots.

[fizzix]

This is the same implementation used in NPP and S, and I think it's the one we should use: it means that the quiver isn't giving or taking away any space, it's just allowing up to ten non-stackable ammo types in one to ten slots.

I'm curious what the motivation for this is specifically for ammo on person and not for ammo at home, or wands/staves/rods/scrolls/potions on person.

I'm perfectly willing to accept 'it makes gameplay better because...' as an answer.

[Magnate]

I'm curious what the motivation for this is specifically for ammo on person and not for ammo at home, or wands/staves/rods/scrolls/potions on person.

I'm perfectly willing to accept 'it makes gameplay better because...' as an answer.

Well, the home thing is easy to answer: a home quiver is a whole different thing to implement to a backpack quiver. AFAIK there is no in-principle view against it, other than the prevailing one that the home shouldn't be expanded at all, it's just that nobody has thought it worth the time to implement. Do any variants have a separate ammo store at home?

The potion belt / rod-staff-wand thingy / scroll case is slightly different. Here I think the prevailing view is that we shouldn't do too much to alleviate the challenge of inventory management, beyond a quiver to allow the amalgamation of tiny stacks of ammo.

Just my 2p.

[will_asher]

I'm curious what the motivation for this is specifically for ammo on person and not for ammo at home, or wands/staves/rods/scrolls/potions on person.

I'm perfectly willing to accept 'it makes gameplay better because...' as an answer.

The main thing quiver in NPP/FA/S/DJA does (as I mentioned before) is fix stacking problems. wands/staves/rods/scrolls/potions don't tend to have stacking problems. You also don't normally carry around 99 of them (except maybe for !CCW).

[Marble Dice]

I'm curious what the motivation for this is specifically for ammo on person and not for ammo at home, or wands/staves/rods/scrolls/potions on person.

Scrolls and potions are almost always useful even if you've only got 1 of them. They give you abilities which do not take mana and can not fail. Ammo is only useful for damage; and even then it's not useful unless you have a big enough stack to justify the slot. If you only had 1 arrow of lightning, it probably wouldn't be worth the slot even if it does twice the damage of your melee attack, because you'd only get 1 round of extra damage. If you have a stack of 10, then it becomes competitive with the other items you might want to put in that slot. Consider that archery will probably be toned down in the future, and then ammo would have even more trouble competing with small stack sizes. The quiver helps give ammo a competitive edge since ammo itself tends to have more intensive inventory requirements than other items.

Basically, if there's a scroll or potion that's worth using, it's worth a slot if you've got 1 or if you've got 20. The same is not true of ammo.

[fizzix]

The potion belt / rod-staff-wand thingy / scroll case is slightly different. Here I think the prevailing view is that we shouldn't do too much to alleviate the challenge of inventory management, beyond a quiver to allow the amalgamation of tiny stacks of ammo.

Just my 2p.

I pretty much agree with this completely. I only have one exception. Allowing people to put objects back into chests. Chests should never stack and the weight is the chest weight plus the objects inside. The only way to get stuff out of the chest is to drop it and open it. It would be useful for ironman characters. However, I think this is pretty difficult to implement based on the way chests are handled.