blows per turn

[RogerN]

One option that might deal with the weapon weight issue would be to introduce an "awkwardness" factor for use in the blows/round calculation.

Slightly off-topic, but this is exactly how my variant (not released yet) handles blows. Every weapon has an inertia value which is independent from (but frequently based on) its weight. Shorter weapons tend to have lower inertia values than longer weapons with the same weight. Also, the blows calculation assumes that your arm has a certain amount of inertia which is added to the weapon's.

[fizzix]

Here's a comparison between Powerdiver's formula and my formula for a weapon weight of 3. My formula provides additional blows as a function of clevel. That's why it only goes between 1 and 3. Powerdiver's limits the amount of blows you get based on character level, so you can't actually start out with 4 blows per round. I couldn't put in Hariolor's formula also, because class level is not easily separable from the formula.

Mine is on the left.

[PowerDiver]

why?

[Talking about allowing max blows at mid CL.]

First off, because that's consistent with the old way, where people finished stat gain around CL 30-35. Secondly, I want the opportunity to fight M at CL 39 with max blows.

Blows is supposed to be mostly orthogonal to CL. If not, you might as well just throw out dex and str and make it a straight function of CL. I'd rather see CL have no effect at all than see it be required to be over 35 for max blows.

YMMV.

[PowerDiver]

My proposal was not meant to be taken seriously enough to produce graphs! It's just an outline of an approach. I made up the constants as I typed it.

[fizzix]

Here's a comparison for 30 lbs weapon.

I should note the asterisks correspond to STR and DEX values of 17, 18/20 and 18/120.

I used these because 17,17, 17,18/20 and 18/20,17 are reasonable starting values for STR and DEX. 18/120 is a reasonable value for the midgame.

[fizzix]

My proposal was not meant to be taken seriously enough to produce graphs! It's just an outline of an approach. I made up the constants as I typed it.

Ha! i already had the framework written to produce them, so it was trivial to create them. Besides, I really like your approach because it completely crushes mine for simplicity.

[Pete Mack]

Eddie's proposal sure makes life easy for a Mage--4 blows with a dagger at STR 4! And yet eddies constants are pretty reasonable at weight 30.

I think that
1. The class multiplier from the current model is the right idea: mages require better stats to reach the same damage as a warrior.
2. There's no way to get this right with a linear multiplier for STR.
This. Is not to say that no simple, reasonable model exists, just that it requires more comsrtaints.

[PowerDiver]

Yes, upon closer inspection, my idea doesn't work. This doesn't work either, but is getting closer.

using integer arithmetic:

blows = min{DEX,36} / (6 + penalty) - 2 * WW / STR

where penalty = 2 for pure casters, 1 for half casters, and 0 for warriors

[Pete Mack]

That solves half the problem. You also need to decide what the minimum stats are to get four blows with a dagger, and what the maximum weight you can get 6 blows with at str/dex 40/40.

Then fit a lime between those two points, rather tha trying to use a simple proportional fit.

[fizzix]

Eddie's proposal sure makes life easy for a Mage--4 blows with a dagger at STR 4! And yet eddies constants are pretty reasonable at weight 30.

I think that
1. The class multiplier from the current model is the right idea: mages require better stats to reach the same damage as a warrior.
2. There's no way to get this right with a linear multiplier for STR.
This. Is not to say that no simple, reasonable model exists, just that it requires more comsrtaints.

Related to point 1. Is it really that important to include the class modifier in with STR and WW? If you instead use the class modifier to put a hard cap in how many blows a class gets at a clevel (like Eddie) or how many extra blows you get (like my original function). Currently, looking at Eddie's function you would only get those 4 blows per round with a dagger at clevel 30. A mage would only start with 1 though, and that's kind of rough.

My original function worked on your later premise of finding what blows per round are reasonable with a dagger on clevel 1 and what blows per round are reasonable with maxed stats at clevel 50. The formula is a bit convoluted and doesn't distinguish the differences between STR and DEX though. I think Hariolor's did the same, but I've been unable to figure out how to present that one.

2. There are other ways to make the STR/WW term non-linear that don't include class. If class or clevel were to be included in either STR or DEX calculations I'd much rather include it in the DEX calculation. The reasoning is, in both the current model and Eddie's model there are arbitrary break points in DEX. I'd much rather have these be eliminated. That means, either fractional blows, or throwing some other dependence in there. Clevel seems to be the easiest one. If 3.1.3 will include fractional blows for sure, then this isn't a problem. But I'm not sure that this will be the case.

Today doesn't seem like it'll be busy at work, so I'll have some time to play with these some more.

[buzzkill]

A mage would only start with 1 though, and that's kind of rough.

It's a mage, not a fighter! What's the problem?

[PowerDiver]

That solves half the problem. You also need to decide what the minimum stats are to get four blows with a dagger, and what the maximum weight you can get 6 blows with at str/dex 40/40.

I don't see that. Come up with your best formula, and then change the weights on weapons if you think a particular weapon should max at a particular number of blows. The weights are arbitrary and ridiculous, so there is no reason not to change them for convenience.