How do I avoid getting knocked out?

[Nemesis]

I've never been knocked out and I'd like it to stay that way, as it seems like your chances of getting up again are slim unless you count pestering future characters as an undead adversary as "getting up again".

I've heard that Master Mystics and Grand Master Mystics are infamous for knocking adventurers out. Grand Master Mystics have that well sought after DROP_GREAT flag though, and I'd really like to hunt them down rather than stay away from them because of that. As far as I can tell, no other non-unique opponent seem to have DROP_GREAT so I guess you understand why I want to kill Grand Master Mystics. But how do I do it?

Obviously I need something that grants Free Action lest I want to be helpless long before I'm stunned enough to be down for counting. Speaking of "down for counting", boxers don't kick their knocked out opponents and as Eastern schools of matrial arts seem to be much more bound to a "Code of Honour" than boxing, maybe I can expect them to be gentlemen and wait for me to get up? Or is it a bad idea to count on that to save me if I get knocked out, as Morgoth may have twisted them to forfeit all honour and become ruthless Fu Manchu-like villians? Maybe you guys who have gotten deep into the dungeons of Angband can fill me in?

Anyway, my current character is a Dunadan Paladin who is used to kill most things in melee and only occasionally use ranged weapons and combat magic to take out fleeing foes and dangerous but fragile mage-like enemies. Mystics aren't animals, demons, evil, undead, giants, orcs or trolls either and immune to all elements which means I can't prepare some slaying or branded ammunition to help me defeat them from afar either. Actually, I can't be very prepared for them at all, as they're "not evil" (of course they're evil, at least if it turns out to be true that they kick their opponents when they're lying helpless) and I can only rely on my Detect Evil spell and I haven't found Godly Insights.

Let's say I find Godly Insights, then I could cast Detect Monsters and stay far away from them until I max my stats and reach character level 50. But is that enough to melee them?

And lets say I don't find Godly Insights in time, that means I'll have to stay away from diving deeper and scum for it on the shallower levels of Angband, right?

Are there other monsters (not only literal monsters but also humans with the moral values of a monster) who are capable of knocking you out? Ogres and Trolls seem to stun me a lot but not even once have I been heavily stunned. I've also read that sound attacks stun you, but I can't recall getting stunned by Vibration Hounds or Gold Dragons. But maybe I've always had resistance to sound when fighting those, at least when it comes to older Gold Dragons. It wouldn't suprise me if I had resistance as I had everything I needed in that (victorious ) game of Quickband.

It's so ironic, when I had sound resistance and met the variants end boss Saruman without encountering Grand Master Mystics I also had Godly Insights, but now when I'm after Morgoth and certainly have to meet Grand Master Mystics and also lack resistance to sonic attacks - of course I don't have Godly Insights! And of course those Vibration Hounds aren't evil enough to be seen with Detect Evil. And to make matters even worse, Grand Master Mystics can summon Vibration Hounds to do his bidding. I'm starting to get more and more convinced that Mystics aren't honorable matrial artists, if they fought fair they'd do it one on one instead of wanting to sic their doggies on me!

Can you please tell me which monsters you and people you know have been knocked out by so I know when I have to be extra careful. It wouldn't hurt to know of your close calls where you got heavily stunned either! And finally, what can I do to prevent stunning except avoiding those monsters or killing them extra fast? Is there any spells around that can grant you immunity to stunning? I know Cure Critical Wounds and greater healing potions set the stun counter to zero but when should I quaff them? I seems like getting "stunned" is something that happens all the time while I can't remember ever getting "heavily stunned". So quaffing potions as soon as you get stunned is going to run you out of potions at a brisk pace but can it be too late if you wait until you get heavily stunned until you quaff those potions? Is it usual that you go directly from stunned to knocked out if you fight a mighty opponent or are careless enough to get surrounded by pack of bad doggies or other (in a negative way) stunning foes?

Oh, and one more thing! Some baddies seem to have an hunger inducing spell (please tell me if there are others who have "touch to cause hunger" or something similar too) and if you fail to resist it, is it possible to faint from it? I mean, if you walk around weak from hunger but is it possible to go directly from "hungry" to "fainting" from a Hunger spell or a hunger attack (if such an attack exists). Also, is it commoin that hunger causing enemies hunt in packs? Bats of Gorgoroth seem to do, but they've got so much magic to choose from that they seldom end up using their Hunger spell.

Sorry for writing such a long post but it's my birthday today and it would be an awful birthday if I lost my character today. But for those of you who don't want to read through it all, I can quickly make a list of ten questions:

1. How do I defeat a Grand Master Mystic as a Dunadan Paladin?
2. Are there any other non-unique enemies with the flag DROP_GREAT?
3. What do you do when you dive to levels deeper than you should be diving if you lack Detect Monsters? Do you just use Detect Evil and ESP and hope your enemies have minds or are evil enough or do you just hold your thumbs?
4. What other monsters capable of knocking out out are there?
5. Which attacks should I look out for? Sound, of course, but are there other attacks? Gravity? Inertia? "Hit to batter"? "Kick to hurt"? Please tell me so I can spoil my game using monster.txt!
6. Do Mystics lack the Oriental matrial arts code of honour and kick men and women who are lying helpless on the floor? If so, why can't they be seen with Detect Evil?
7. Please tell me the best way to find Godly Insights (with Detect Monsters among other prayers!) I usually play with "Auto-scum for good levels" on but as I birth option I have the (NPPAngband only?) "All levels levels generated as small" and because of that Greater Vaulst are very, very rare, even more uncommon than they normally are!
8. If you meet someone who's really mighty or careless enough to get surrounded by a pack of nasties, is it common to go from only "stunned" to "knocked out" in one turn, totally passing "heavily stunned"?
9. Is it possible to get cursed with hunger from enemies and go from "hungry" to "fainting" without passing "weak" in one single move if you get surrounded or happen to be in a fight with someone real tough or happen to run into several lesser threats all using their hunger spell (or attack) on you?
10. Is there any way to gain stunning resistance or immunity from casting a spell, using a magical item or quaffing a potion? I'm neither talking about quaffing potions to neutralise stunning you're already suffering from nor equipping something to gain sound resistance, I''m asking if there is some way to gain temporary resistance to getting stunned - and more importatly - knocked out.

[fizzix]

Ok, so that was a long post. Not sure where to begin.

First, I don't see a drop_great flag on the GMMs I don't even see a drop_good flag.

There are two types of cumulative effects that monsters do. Cutting and Stunning. I'm just making my way through the code as I respond.

The following types of physical attacks stun: hit, punch, kick, butt, crush.


The following types of attacks cut: hit, claw bite.

Note: hit will only do a cut or a stun, not both.

In addition Sound and Plasma will stun, while shards will cut. I think that's it, but I could be wrong.

Both Stun and Cuts get incremented semi-randomly as you go, with each monster attack adding to the counter. As stun increases, you get other negative effects including an increased fail rate on spells, and a penalty to hit.

Let's deal with stunning:

Stun greater than 100 = knocked out
Stun greater than 50 = heavy stun
Stun greater than 0 = stunned

Here's how you decide whether you've been stunned.

First, damage needs to be near critical. At least 95% of a max hit.
Second if the damage is less than 20 hp, then it will generate stun only damage/100 times.

Then the addition to the stun counter is a function of the damage, but it should range between 1 and 10. Stun is higher if the damage is perfect, and if it's 20 points or greater.

Now let's see why GMMs stun so much.

They have four attacks, two kicks and two hits. the kicks are of values 20d2 and 10d2 which will provide stunning extremely rarely. However, the two hits are at 20d1 and 15d1 which automatically pass the 95% rule. It's that first hit that's a killer though, it automatically will produce stunning. Not only that, because it's an automatic max damage for 20 points, it will add to the stun counter to between 30 and 60.

The GMM moves at speed +20. So imagine an unhasted character meeting up with one. There's a very large chance of that stun counter going to 100 and knocked out between player moves. If the player is moving at speed +10 the GMM still has a chance of bringing the stun counter from 0-100 between player moves, if he gets a double move in.

The GMM is the only monster that has an attack that's forced max at greater than 20.

I could have gotten something wrong though. I'm not sure if the damage is before or after it's reduced by player armor.

[pampl]

1. How do I defeat a Grand Master Mystic as a Dunadan Paladin?
2. Are there any other non-unique enemies with the flag DROP_GREAT?
3. What do you do when you dive to levels deeper than you should be diving if you lack Detect Monsters? Do you just use Detect Evil and ESP and hope your enemies have minds or are evil enough or do you just hold your thumbs?
4. What other monsters capable of knocking out out are there?
5. Which attacks should I look out for? Sound, of course, but are there other attacks? Gravity? Inertia? "Hit to batter"? "Kick to hurt"? Please tell me so I can spoil my game using monster.txt!
6. Do Mystics lack the Oriental matrial arts code of honour and kick men and women who are lying helpless on the floor? If so, why can't they be seen with Detect Evil?
7. Please tell me the best way to find Godly Insights (with Detect Monsters among other prayers!) I usually play with "Auto-scum for good levels" on but as I birth option I have the (NPPAngband only?) "All levels levels generated as small" and because of that Greater Vaulst are very, very rare, even more uncommon than they normally are!
8. If you meet someone who's really mighty or careless enough to get surrounded by a pack of nasties, is it common to go from only "stunned" to "knocked out" in one turn, totally passing "heavily stunned"?
9. Is it possible to get cursed with hunger from enemies and go from "hungry" to "fainting" without passing "weak" in one single move if you get surrounded or happen to be in a fight with someone real tough or happen to run into several lesser threats all using their hunger spell (or attack) on you?
10. Is there any way to gain stunning resistance or immunity from casting a spell, using a magical item or quaffing a potion? I'm neither talking about quaffing potions to neutralise stunning you're already suffering from nor equipping something to gain sound resistance, I''m asking if there is some way to gain temporary resistance to getting stunned - and more importatly - knocked out.

1. Ideally you run. If you have a score to settle or something then you could try shooting + phase door, while hasted and using a missile weapon with multiple shots so you can flee if he summons nasty hounds.
2. I'm with fizzix, I didn't even think GMM had it. You could go to lib/edit and search monster.txt for "DROP_GREAT".
3. High speed, high HP, lots of escapes, and what you said. I'm not familiar with the idiom "hold your thumbs" but if it means hoping for good luck (or at least the absence of bad luck) then that's good too. If you can buy consumables of detect invis then that can help against Qs.
4. All mystics. Vibration and plasma hounds if you don't have sound resistance. Cloud (or storm?) giants if you don't have elec resistance. Maybe any unique trolls (is Rogrog in NPP?) or ogres. It's not too common and usually not too threatening.
5. Those (not including grav/inertia) and unresisted sound and maybe elec are it. I'm not really sure how the elec one works but I'm sure I've been knocked out by one of the weather giants and I probably didn't resist it at the time.
6. I think Evil in Angband is less about personal choices and more about factional allegiance. That aside, I don't think there's too big a difference between knocking you out and killing you versus just plain old killing you. They could leave you alone but then you'd get eaten, they could restrain you but then they'd have to feed and protect you indefinitely, or they could let you go but then they'd have a mortal enemy running around.
7. No idea. Detect objects or detect magic plus stair scumming, maybe.
8. Yep, that's why those hounds and mystics are considered a whole different kind of threat than the weak stunning done by other monsters.
9. I'm looking at a different variant's code but I think it's based on NPP's and it looks like those hunger spells and attacks reduce your fullness by an amount proportional to your current fullness. They eat up about 1/4 your current stomach contents, so it's probably possible to be reduced to fainting by enough of those attacks but it'd take a lot. The spell's/attack's power isn't effected by the monster's level.
10. Nope.

[Pete Mack]

I suspect he's playing NPP. If so, I beg to differ. GMMs don't have that many HP, so if you can deal out damage fast, you can kill them with melée or archery. And they do have DROP_GREAT. However, that's a strategy for Ranger, rogue/brigand, or warrior. Priests should focus on powerful Liches with DROP_CHEST instead. nd dragons. Killing Wyrms by the dozen is the quickest way to rack up loot.

[Nemesis]

Yes, I took the info out of monsters.txt from my NPPAngband folder, but not only because that's the variant I'm playing right now... The monsters.txt file in Vanilla, at least on my computer, seem to be written in such way that there are no "line-breaks". I'm not really sure how I explain this in English, but let's say "line-breaks" are when you hit enter to start a new line. Lots of "line-breaks" is what differs poetry from prose nowdays when the trend is to not write in rhyme and metre. <br> would be the code used if you were writing a website in the html language.

Anyway, turning the "word wrap" funtion on and off doesn't seem to help, monsters.txt in my "vanilla" Angband folder is impossible to understand if you're a pessimist and hard on your eyes if you're an optimist. I don't know if this is because of some quirk on my computer or if they've made the file less accessable to stop people from spoiling their games.

Thank you for plowing through my truckload of text, which might have been annoying even though it *DOES* have line breaks.

I like the decision of the maintainers not to include too many stunning monsters, that's the way Anband should be if you ask me. Common and dangerous attack should lose most of their threat once you get resistance but there should still be a couple of less common but equally dangerous attacks that you can't resist. Those work as:

A) A reason why good detection spells and utilities should be vauled and sought for
B) A nasty suprise for characters without proper detection
C) Something to run from for smart characters with proper detection
D) Something to run after for stupid/brave/thrill seeking characters with proper detection

Right now, I'm in category A and B when it comes to those Grand Master Mystics. When I run into one of them I could perhaps get lucky and only get "heavily" stunned before I get my chance to act. Then I'd read my Level Teleport Scroll (note to self: Read the damn scroll and not something from ethereal openings, you don't want to risk failing and you remember reading somewhere that being stunned increases the risk of failing) and get away with only the post traumatic stress disorder of once again having a really close call. Better still, is to stay away from diving too deep until you find Godly Insights. I just hope I can find Godly Insights without diving too deep!

As I have the Cloak of Colluin, a Cloak that gives me all the low resistances including poison and activates for giving me double resistance in all those things, I don't have to fear electricity as a threat to my life, right? A single resist should protect me from getting stunned in one turn and a double resist should be enough for late-game nasties. From my (in)experience, total immunity doesn't seem that crucial to my own survival but is nice as it lets my inventory survive and because unlike double resist it doesn't run out of time.

How easy is it to become knocked out from sound and plasma, btw? Has it happened to you or someone you know or have there been close calls?

Thanks to Pete Mack for the tip about Demiliches and Arch-Liches having that DROP_CHEST flag in NPP, btw! I've never battled those really high level liches before, but with the right preparation and a anti-summoner corridor I think I could do it without risking my life. Does TOUCH:UN_POWER mean they drain charges from my wands/staffs/rods to heal themselves? And ff so, can they do it artifacts, elemental rings and dragon scale armour too?

[Psi]

Anyway, turning the "word wrap" funtion on and off doesn't seem to help, monsters.txt in my "vanilla" Angband folder is impossible to understand if you're a pessimist and hard on your eyes if you're an optimist. I don't know if this is because of some quirk on my computer or if they've made the file less accessable to stop people from spoiling their games.

Have you tried opening it in wordpad rather than notepad?

[Matthias]

How easy is it to become knocked out from sound and plasma, btw? Has it happened to you or someone you know or have there been close calls?

Maybe not as easy as from GMM, but plasma hounds can knock you out in one turn if you get enough of them to breath on you at once. I have one dead guy on the ladder from plasma hounds, and remember one more character getting killed this way. Sounds hounds: Very unlikely, they don't do enough damage. Other plasma breathers don't appear in groups so for those cases losing potions or the damage itself is usually the biggest problem

[buzzkill]

I've never been knocked out from stunning, and can only remember a few times when I've been heavily stunned. If you're set on hunting GMM's then you probably have a legit concern, otherwise I'd say there are a lot of other things that deserve your attention.

[Marble Dice]

Does TOUCH:UN_POWER mean they drain charges from my wands/staffs/rods to heal themselves? And ff so, can they do it artifacts, elemental rings and dragon scale armour too?

Yes, UN_POWER is the flag for drain charges, and yes it heals the monster. Charges only drain from wands and staves that have more than 0 charges. Rods, artifacts, rings, armor, and anything else with an 'A'ctivation is unaffected.

Most liches aren't so bad because you can just drop your wands and staves. The problem is with drainers that have fire balls/breath, acid balls/breath (for staves), or elec balls/breath (for wands), who can destroy your items from the ground. You've got to make a stash around a corner or something if you don't want your devices drained.

[fizzix]

Yes, UN_POWER is the flag for drain charges, and yes it heals the monster. Charges only drain from wands and staves that have more than 0 charges. Rods, artifacts, rings, armor, and anything else with an 'A'ctivation is unaffected.

Most liches aren't so bad because you can just drop your wands and staves. The problem is with drainers that have fire balls/breath, acid balls/breath (for staves), or elec balls/breath (for wands), who can destroy your items from the ground. You've got to make a stash around a corner or something if you don't want your devices drained.

Another tactic that I'll use mainly for Sauron and Morgoth is to use have a stack of banishment and destruction staves. The destruction is to make a good area to fight without being in LOS of a large amount of summonses. After a large summon I'll teleport away and recharge and banish whatever the summon was. I'll drain the stave of banishes. If needed I'll recharge and destruct as well.

I've forgotten how insanely annoying drain charges is for a warrior who needs staves for pretty much every normal spell action. Rods have a much higher failure rate it seems.

[zaimoni]

I've heard that Master Mystics and Grand Master Mystics are infamous for knocking adventurers out.

In Zaiband, any melee attack that is an auto-stun attack is terrifying.

This includes the mystics. Any attack that does at least 95% of theoretical maximum damage, and is otherwise allowed to stun, can increment the stun counter. If that attack does at least 20 pts of damage, this is automatic.

So, have a healthy respect for the (20+)d1 non-hit attack.

Obviously I need something that grants Free Action lest I want to be helpless long before I'm stunned enough to be down for counting.

While you need Free Action for many other reasons, it will not save you from stunning.

Speaking of "down for counting", boxers don't kick their knocked out opponents and as Eastern schools of matrial arts seem to be much more bound to a "Code of Honour" than boxing, maybe I can expect them to be gentlemen and wait for me to get up?

This is not a sporting event. While they will not administer a true coup de grace, neither will they wait for you to get up. (I have considered implementing coup de grace in Zaiband, but the game rebalancing required is too severe at this time.)

(Boxing, incidentally, is a much more civilized sport than it used to be. Take a look at the boxing match in Virgil's Aeneid: Book 5. Lines 464-627 in the Robert Fitzgerald translation.)

[Nemesis]

While you need Free Action for many other reasons, it will not save you from stunning.

What I meant was that Grand Master Mystics have a paralyzation attack too, and if you don't have Free Action you'd be paralyzed before you get stunned enough to get knocked out. Not that anyone with a sense of self preservation would even think of diving that deep down without Free Actioin.

(Boxing, incidentally, is a much more civilized sport than it used to be. Take a look at the boxing match in Virgil's Aeneid: Book 5. Lines 464-627 in the Robert Fitzgerald translation.)

Well, they did abort the match before Dares was killed, didn't they? Maybe I can count on that too if I get knocked out? "Angband.exe has encountered an error and had to be shut down"

And then tell myself that I wouldn't have got killed if the game had not been aborted, but that a Nexus Hound would have teleported me to another level where I would have been safe? Or maybe it's easier to take it easy with Grand Master Mystics and Plasma Hounds in first place.


SPEAK OF THE DEVIL: I just got caught in a "Shimmering Nexus Rune" (an NPPAngband trap which activates just by being in close proximity rather than actually stepping on it) and it crashed my game... Not that it would have been lethal or anything like, but it could have messed up my stats! I don't save scum, but appearantly the game decided to do that for me!

Have you tried opening it [monsters.txt] in wordpad rather than notepad?

No, I haven't... Maybe I should?

[Psi]

No, I haven't... Maybe I should?

Yes

If you are hitting what I suspect you are, then this is to do with the different carriage returns you get between 'nixes and Windows. Wordpad (and Word etc) understand these things whilst Notepad doesn't.