A fair way to nerf Zephyr Hounds?

[Atarlost]

Part of the problem is that there are too many damage types. A lot of the elements don't even make sense (eg nexus). A sensible rework of the element set would fix the late game hound problem as a side effect.

[miyazaki]

I have been playing a lot of ironman lately and my problem with hounds is not their breath (which is annoying, but I can accept it as a difficult part of the game) but the fact that the melee attack of hounds can burn, corrode, freeze and electrocute my @. Since I am often adventuring with limited supplies, including single spell books (dive too fast and you will don't find pb1/mb1), it means that I have to completely flee hounds--I can't attack from a distance or melee them without putting my entire game at risk!

I think hounds shoud be dangerous--but so dangerous that finding a pack mean I need to leave the level. One way to offset this would be to have double resists protect your inventory. Fire hounds, for example, would still be tough, but you wouldn't have to worry about your prayer books being incinerated.

[Zikke]

Personally, I think double resists should protect your gear for reasons other than Ironman. It should be a rule in V.

[Pete Mack]

Hounds aren't fun: we all agree on that. I will take this opportunity to note: time vortexes, drolems, groups of dreads, Q's, AMHDs, jelly pits, and graveyards are also Not Fun. Let's get rid of them too...

[Nightmarjoo]

Well, I agree that jelly pits are pretty useless, and wouldn't mind seeing them go for some more interesting pit replacement.

Time is pretty gay, so if you wanted to get rid of time vortexes, I wouldn't mind either.

The other things you mentioned don't fit here imo. Ancient Multi-Hued Dragons are really scary when you first meet them, depending on your class/hp/resistances(and source of double or not)/method of damaging, but it doesn't take long before they're just another ancient dragon who gives decent xp and drops pretty well.
I've never had a problem with a drolem before, but I'm aware of instant drolem poison deaths, but that fits angband pretty well imo.
Groups of Dreads aren't that bad, they're worst for a warrior who is definitely meleeing, and only really if he lacks sust_str. Low ac/low hp @s could have trouble vs a lot of Dreads sure, but you can often see the sleeping group and attract them one at a time, banish them if needed, teleport yourself away, whatever. Nether bold is probably the strongest thing they have, and you can treat them like any other nether-bolter, if you lack res_nethr, leave level. Once dreads are manageable, whenever that may be for your character, they can still drop objects for you, and are thusly useful.
Qs are more fun than annoying imo, except for nexus Qs who are just annoying. But then, I'm a player who gets excited when he finds scrolls/staves of summon monster. The things Qs can summon, if they don't get out of control (and yeah, they often do), can drop objects.
Graveyards are pretty scary yeah, mostly since a lot of it passes through walls, but once you can handle them, or are able to pick off individual undead coming through the walls, they can be a good source of exp and objects.

The biggest difference from everything on that list and Hounds, is that hounds don't drop loot. They're not really worth any exp by the time you can handle them with no losses, and they can quickly decimate your inventory, or your hp depending on who they are. I'm tired of being unable to rest for any period of time for being interrupted by "You hear a door being bashed down!" or whatever it says, from some door I can't even see being broken by hounds on the other side of the level.

[NotMorgoth]

I'd say the biggest difference between those things and hounds is that those things are not found in large numbers on every level.

[pampl]

The biggest difference from everything on that list and Hounds, is that hounds don't drop loot. They're not really worth any exp by the time you can handle them with no losses, and they can quickly decimate your inventory, or your hp depending on who they are.

I don't think that XP statement is really true for the high level hounds or for low level hounds of a type you innately resist- light, dark, or air hounds are great for levelling in the late teens and low 20s if you're the appropriate race.

That's sort of tangential disagreement, though. My main disagreement is the same as (what I think is) Pete Mack's - not every encounter should be rewarding or easily avoidable. Being hunted down by hounds is one of the things that makes Angband seem more like a hostile, scary place and not an extended shopping spree.

[Magnate]

Hounds aren't fun: we all agree on that. I will take this opportunity to note: time vortexes, drolems, groups of dreads, Q's, AMHDs, jelly pits, and graveyards are also Not Fun. Let's get rid of them too...

You're missing the important point made by fizzix earlier in the thread: the big difference between hounds and all the other "not fun" monsters you list is that hounds APPEAR ON EVERY LEVEL. One or more packs, every single dungeon level from about 1500' onwards. That's a huge difference.

Personally I add 1 to the rarity of every Z in monster.txt, making the five basic hounds twice as rare, the force/gravity/etc. group 50% rarer, and the rare hounds just a bit rarer. That makes a just about tolerable balance between challenge and boredom - but I'd be slightly happier adding 2 rather than 1 ...

[fizzix]

Hounds aren't fun: we all agree on that. I will take this opportunity to note: time vortexes, drolems, groups of dreads, Q's, AMHDs, jelly pits, and graveyards are also Not Fun. Let's get rid of them too...

let's see the differences between these and hounds.

time vortex - rarity 4, always comes alone
drolems - rarity 3, always comes alone, starts off sleeping
dreads - rarity 2, starts off sleeping, pick up item + passwall allows you to loot vaults without entering them.
Q's - always come alone, don't move, more dangerous ones are rare
AMHD - always come alone, drop items, starts off sleeping (these are annoying?)
jelly pits - rare, very easily avoided.
graveyards - rare, less easily avoided.

I would say that if graveyards appeared on every level 4000' downward, they'd be as annoying as hounds. Right now the only monster that comes close are dreads. Once you get below dlevel 35, you'll see a pack of dreads on about once every 5 levels. If you can't handle them, there's still only a 20% chance you'll need to leave any given level. Less if they're in a corner that you can avoid. (80% is completely pulled out of thin air, I have no numbers on this) Dreads can also be useful as mentioned above, which makes them marginally more enjoyable.

There is no monster that is more annoying than hounds. None. Nothing even comes close.

[Nightmarjoo]

Being hunted down by hounds is one of the things that makes Angband seem more like a hostile, scary place and not an extended shopping spree.

I do agree with this, and yeah if you get an early source of res_pois or are a kobold, air hounds are great, but that's because poison doesn't destroy anything. Clear hounds can be nice for someone diving quickly as an easy source of exp, and are never a problem.

Things like fire hounds, and more-so water hounds feel like they're punishing you for just playing the game. Before a warrior has any method of detecting monsters, just a single step into vision of some out-of-sight fire hounds down a hall, just a couple breaths and all your recall scrolls are gone, bye bye phase door, recharge, staves, etc. Likewise water hounds can do the same thing, while degrading your armour at the same time.

These things are annoying enough when you can just recall back home, buy replacements for everything and re-enchant your armour, I can't imagine how much of a pain this must be for ironman players. Hounds are one of those things that forces you to spend more time in the town buying stuff, and less time adventuring. We're all in agreement that the dungeon is more fun than the town?

It just seems to me that the weaker hounds do too much damage to your equipment and inventory, and the later hounds deal out too much damage at once. They seem overpowered in their ability to make your life miserable. It just seems to me that if they had to melee you to do that damage, it would be more fair, or if they couldn't all blast you at once it'd be more fair. A big part of Angband is being able to pick your fights for the most part, but hounds seem more in control of picking their battles with you than you are. Maybe their breaths should have more of a distance limitation? That way, if you choose to fight them, they can still all blast you at once, but you have more of a choice to fight them, or oops that hallway has hounds, and you get a chance to run away without losing half your inventory first.

[Nightmarjoo]

There is no monster that is more annoying than hounds. None. Nothing even comes close.

I dunno, some of those fast moving acid jellies can be pretty awful too, they resist a lot too. Lice can be pretty awful really early on. And ugh, shrieking mushrooms! So much for trying to sneak around that out of depth monster!

[miyazaki]

One more annoying thing i have noticed about hounds: If you damage them and they are running scared, they can still stop and breath on you. I think a monster that is scare/confused/stunned etc, should not be able to breath. Maybe this would be a way to make _scaremonster or _confusemonster more useful. imagine being surrounded by water hounds and be able to neutralize them with one well used staff or spell!

[Nightmarjoo]

Oh god yes, it annoys me to no end that people running away can still fight back when I don't expect them to. I've lost so many low level characters to big guys who run away just before the last blow, and they stop to kill me as I'm chasing them to a corner to deal a fatal blow. Can't melee and hard to shoot/cast while wearing a ring of escaping.

[Nick]

You guys are playing with fire here. It's important to remember that you need to be a bit of a sadist to be a *band maintainer - and you've just exposed your weak spot in a big way. So, for example, takkaria could include Oangband's Hounds of Tindalos, which pass through walls and breathe time, disenchantment and nether.

Not that I would suggest such a thing

[Maupin]

It's always amusing when a running scared monster teleports you to it. (Blink dogs, for example.)

And to chime in on the topic: I hate hounds. They are ridiculously everpresent in every single dungeon level below a certain point. Just annoying. I'd rather they were more rare.