learning without spoilers

[PowerDiver]

The way I think learning should work is that the player should be provided, through a gloriously transparent UI, with the full content of all of the edit files. However, most people consider that info to be "spoilers", which should not be provided.

My question is how the player is supposed be able to learn, for example, a ring of the dog. Even if you saw it in a previous game, and then you find a ring matching its properties, how do you know there isn't another ring with the same properties but also having resistance to time? There are no items with resistance to time, but without knowledge of the edit files the player cannot know that.

Do those of you who are opposed to "spoilers" think that if you know positively all of the flags of an object you should learn awareness even if you don't have proof that the other flags are not present? Only if you have seen and used the identify spell on the flavor in a previous game? Or is learning impossible, and only the identify spell should provide awareness on jewelry?

[Atarlost]

Rune-based ID would help a lot, especially if you could note when all the runes on it had been identified. You could then know that your ring of the dog is a ring of the dog because it has the same runes, and that there are no unidentified runes that could be additional properties.

Or you could just make everything EASY_KNOW.

[Magnate]

The way I think learning should work is that the player should be provided, through a gloriously transparent UI, with the full content of all of the edit files. However, most people consider that info to be "spoilers", which should not be provided.

My question is how the player is supposed be able to learn, for example, a ring of the dog. Even if you saw it in a previous game, and then you find a ring matching its properties, how do you know there isn't another ring with the same properties but also having resistance to time? There are no items with resistance to time, but without knowledge of the edit files the player cannot know that.

Do those of you who are opposed to "spoilers" think that if you know positively all of the flags of an object you should learn awareness even if you don't have proof that the other flags are not present? Only if you have seen and used the identify spell on the flavor in a previous game? Or is learning impossible, and only the identify spell should provide awareness on jewelry?

My 2p: don't make *anything* dependent on previous games (we don't want another set of metagame issues like monster memory). I'd prefer to have fuller ID-by-use than spoiler-ish info in the game, so I'd go for your rune-based system, where an item is fully ID'd when its last unknown property is established. Logically the game should tell the player how many unknown properties an item has (how many runes), but I see no harm in not doing that. It's really just an abstracted convenience to make the item ID'd in the end.

[PaulBlay]

My 2p: don't make *anything* dependent on previous games (we don't want another set of metagame issues like monster memory).

I personally dislike the idea of "inherited" monster memory and never start a game from a dead-character's save file.

[buzzkill]

I personally dislike the idea of "inherited" monster memory and never start a game from a dead-character's save file.

Is anyone working dumping the monster memory into a separate file so you can use it for, let's say, competition play.

[PaulBlay]

Is anyone working dumping the monster memory into a separate file so you can use it for, let's say, competition play.

How about this:

Every time you go to your home you "write your memoires" and put monster memory in a file that can be used by all characters [Per user, where the OS port supports UID].

"Inherit monster memory" could be a birth option. OK, I know 'certain people' hate adding options but I think it makes sense this way, rather than having the odd "load from dead character's save file" stuff.

[saarn]

My question is how the player is supposed be able to learn, for example, a ring of the dog. Even if you saw it in a previous game, and then you find a ring matching its properties, how do you know there isn't another ring with the same properties but also having resistance to time? There are no items with resistance to time, but without knowledge of the edit files the player cannot know that.

Possibly I'm missing something, but main benefit of this I see to help players avoid scumming around for millions of turns trying to find an item with rTime. Possibly this could be achieved in other ways-- e.g. an effects table which describes the effect, and some lore about what can be done to resist it. For example, for time, it might say, "There is no known way to resist this effect," whereas for nether, it might say, "Dim legends hint at a small handful of items hidden in the dungeon's depths which might grant the wearer protection from this effect." Otherwise, either the item the user has found is worth wearing, regardless of what else might be out there, or it isn't.

Do those of you who are opposed to "spoilers" think that if you know positively all of the flags of an object you should learn awareness even if you don't have proof that the other flags are not present? Only if you have seen and used the identify spell on the flavor in a previous game? Or is learning impossible, and only the identify spell should provide awareness on jewelry?

I don't think learning should generally apply to a particular item-- if my character is wearing multiple unidentified rings/excellent weapons and armor, it seems like it should be extremely difficult, even if I know that I am resisting fire, to know what the source of that resistance is. If the player has only one unidentified magic item that they should be able to attribute any effects not granted by their current equipment correctly, but if the player knows they are wielding a source of rFire, they should not be able to learn that the unidentified ring they have on is also a source of rFire. I do think, however, that the player should become aware of any obvious effects provided by their equipment and that this should show in the character dump for example.

As far as giving a name to the item, I'm not sure. If the user knows the number of properties the item has (e.g. various runes engraved on it), then it makes sense that they should be able to know its full name when all the properties are known. I think it'd be more fun to keep the property count unknown though.

[Donald Jonker]

Possibly I'm missing something, but main benefit of this I see to help players avoid scumming around for millions of turns trying to find an item with rTime.

The other obvious way is its nonappearance on the resistance table on the character sheet. That's also how I know there's no resistance for gravity or plasma, though I've never searched the edit files for them, and no one's ever told me so (that I can remember).

Also, the fixed number of runes argument works pretty well for me too.

[Pete Mack]

I think Eddie's point is different: he's trying to make an identify-by-use system, and it can only work if it "knows" the complete set of ego items in advance. Otherwise, how can you determine that this particular ring, Rfear (-4 stealth) is a Ring of the Dog, and not some other bad stealth ring that comes with a random high resist (rather than just RFear)

He's asking more of a game mechanics question than a player's question.

[Atarlost]

Ah. The difference between a Ring of the Dog and a hypothetical Ring of Noisy High Resist is irrelevant because a transparent rune-based Flavors are no longer needed. Both should show up as "a Ring with two runes" before any identification takes place. You probably shouldn't learn flavors at all except if you know all the runes.

[PowerDiver]

Rune based would be great, and I have argued in favor of that approach in the past, but that sure is not current Vanilla. In addition, once you have runes there is no particular point in fixed flavors or egos.

I am talking about the current game, where once you identify a ring of con you recognize from a distance any further ring of con for the rest of the game. Once I wield a con ring and see it increases my con by 3, I know what it is. Should I also have to track down a con drainer to officially learn it has sustain con? If so, would that be enough? What about getting obj-info to note my defender in my inventory -- should I be forced to learn the random sustain first?

Things are horribly inconsistent. If you aim a wand of magic missile, you learn the flavor on the first try, even though it might in fact be a wand of wonder, and there is no way to know for sure until you find and learn a wand of wonder. OTOH, for jewelry flavors, you can know for sure but never learn.

[Magnate]

Things are horribly inconsistent. If you aim a wand of magic missile, you learn the flavor on the first try, even though it might in fact be a wand of wonder, and there is no way to know for sure until you find and learn a wand of wonder. OTOH, for jewelry flavors, you can know for sure but never learn.

This is why I don't think you (or anyone) should sweat too much over 'fixing' the current system. Like fractional blows, I think rune-based ID-by-use is a development for which V has been waiting for a long time. In the meantime, whatever compromises you make to fix the existing system will, I'm sure, be fine. I would always err on the side of not requiring ID - so the current wand behaviour should be extended to jewelry: the ring of the dog should be auto-ID'd.

[takkaria]

Rune based would be great, and I have argued in favor of that approach in the past, but that sure is not current Vanilla. In addition, once you have runes there is no particular point in fixed flavors or egos.

I am talking about the current game, where once you identify a ring of con you recognize from a distance any further ring of con for the rest of the game. Once I wield a con ring and see it increases my con by 3, I know what it is. Should I also have to track down a con drainer to officially learn it has sustain con? If so, would that be enough? What about getting obj-info to note my defender in my inventory -- should I be forced to learn the random sustain first?

Things are horribly inconsistent. If you aim a wand of magic missile, you learn the flavor on the first try, even though it might in fact be a wand of wonder, and there is no way to know for sure until you find and learn a wand of wonder. OTOH, for jewelry flavors, you can know for sure but never learn.

I think I'm on the side of learning the flavour when you know all its properties, not least because practically it seems like it's the best way to make ID-by-use work. Just sayin'.

[Donald Jonker]

Hopefully I'm getting nearer to what you're after here: I don't think there's any good reply to your question. The only truly "consistent" thing to do that I can think of would be to abolish game knowledge altogether, and let the human being name/inscribe things according to his own knowledge. (I'm not actually recommending this.) Once you start letting the computer do some of the work for him, there's going to be a gap between human knowledge and game knowledge, and hence inconsistency.

As Magnate says, I think for the time being, we should err on the side of transparency. Practicality should win over higher logic. No it doesn't make a whole lot of sense that it only takes one zap to distinguish regular wands from wands of wonder, but I sure as hell don't want to have to ?id every single flavor I come across, either.

[PowerDiver]

This is why I don't think you (or anyone) should sweat too much over 'fixing' the current system. Like fractional blows, I think rune-based ID-by-use is a development for which V has been waiting for a long time. In the meantime, whatever compromises you make to fix the existing system will, I'm sure, be fine. I would always err on the side of not requiring ID - so the current wand behaviour should be extended to jewelry: the ring of the dog should be auto-ID'd.

If it was up to me, in the current framework, I'd say that once you learn *any* flag, and sometimes to_hit/to_dam/to_ac when necessary, jewelry should become aware. It's too annoying to have to learn every single flag. One flag is all I think I need to identify any ring or amulet. You might ask about amulet of resist lightning versus resistance, but I have never found an amulet of resistance before resist lightning.

Is this too extreme? Is it any different from learning CCW from hp restore without being forced to learn that it neutralizes poison as well?

I know that I'm too much of a zealot to have any idea about the difference between reasonable versus radical on this issue.