Do we need points based stat generation at all?

[PowerDiver]

Ah, I might not have been clear. The current algorithm is intended to be exactly the one you proposed early in this thread, and it's that I'm trying to tweak (see http://trac.rephial.org/browser/trunk/src/birth.c#L766 for the implementation). I'm assuming anyway that I've not put in a bucket of bugs, it's not that complicated an algorithm after all.

The problem, I think, is

 
813                         /* If possible buy adj DEX of 18/10 */ 
814                         case 1: 
815                         { 
816                                 if (!maxed[A_DEX] && p_ptr->state.stat_top[A_DEX] < 18+10) 
817                                 { 
818                                         if (!buy_stat(A_DEX, stats, points_spent, points_left)) 
819                                                 maxed[A_DEX] = TRUE; 
820                                 } 
821                                 else 
822                                 { 
823                                         step++; 
824                                 } 
825  
826                                 break; 
827                         }

My intention was that if you cannot achieve 18/10 here, you should not spend any points at all on dex until the last phase. Instead, you spend a lot of points even when you cannot achieve 18/10.

[Zikke]

Just as a point of reference, in WoW you don't pick your stats at all, either at birth or throughout the game. They are assigned when you roll a character based on race/class and automatically get increased per level based on your class.

When they came out with it, it was very much against most of the other RPGs out there that demanded customization, and people complained. Until they played it and realized that there are enough ways to customize your character and taking out stat manipulation let you focus on other things, like gear itemization. You can still stack your stats with gear.

[Atarlost]

Of course WOW emphasizes gear. Gear requires you to either grind for gold or do boring, repetative quests. That's great when your customers pay by the hour. No fair making an optimized starting charachter that lets you skip the first hour or two of grinding.

[Zikke]

Of course WOW emphasizes gear. Gear requires you to either grind for gold or do boring, repetative quests. That's great when your customers pay by the hour. No fair making an optimized starting charachter that lets you skip the first hour or two of grinding.

I don't think the fact that WoW is a gear-focused grind fest really matters in this conversation, although it is true. Perhaps the great amount of diverse itemization in WoW offsets the ability to customize stats. I believe that *bands have good itemization but people almost always ignore stats for resists, which is sad.

[Atarlost]

That's because most elemental attacks are balanced with the assumption the player has the resist. Too many resists are must-haves and stats simply aren't.

[ajps]

My intention was that if you cannot achieve 18/10 here, you should not spend any points at all on dex until the last phase. Instead, you spend a lot of points even when you cannot achieve 18/10.

Ahhh, right. The outcome of that is at http://rephial.org/research/birthstats2.txt, and does indeed look more sensible to my inexpert eye, certainly spellcasters come up with significantly better spell stats. As to whether CON is undervalued in that set, that's something I'll have to leave to more knowledgable folk.

[PowerDiver]

Ahhh, right. The outcome of that is at http://rephial.org/research/birthstats2.txt, and does indeed look more sensible to my inexpert eye, certainly spellcasters come up with significantly better spell stats. As to whether CON is undervalued in that set, that's something I'll have to leave to more knowledgable folk.

I never considered the possibility that pure spellcasters could get to Dex 18/10, and a lot of them do in your table. Something needs fixing.

[PowerDiver]

I never considered the possibility that pure spellcasters could get to Dex 18/10, and a lot of them do in your table. Something needs fixing.

I think the answer is only to boost dex [before the con phase] if it gives another blow. That means calc_blows needs to be refactored, passed a weight instead of an object, and also passed str and dex mods. In addition, base str of 18 should be considerd if that would give an extra blow. Perhaps looking for extra blows from stats should be combined with noting required stat improvements for the next extra blow when examining a weapon.

[Magnate]

I think the answer is only to boost dex [before the con phase] if it gives another blow. That means calc_blows needs to be refactored, passed a weight instead of an object, and also passed str and dex mods. In addition, base str of 18 should be considerd if that would give an extra blow. Perhaps looking for extra blows from stats should be combined with noting required stat improvements for the next extra blow when examining a weapon.

I thought about having a bash at refactoring calc_blows as you describe, but then I thought, this is silly - it's a lot of work on something that desperately needs a total overhaul. If we're going to move away from the hard-coded table (and I fervently believe we should, for all sorts of reasons which have already been debated), it will be easy to write the new calc_blows with calling from birth.c in mind (as well as calling during the normal object/combat handling code).

Please, Takkaria, can we have some guidance about the future of the blows calculation? (This could be your equivalent of Ben's move to fractional speed!)

FWIW, in the meantime I think ajps's stat-buying implementation is good enough for newbies (once it's tweaked to incorporate the latest feedback about DEX 18/10, CON etc.).

[takkaria]

I thought about having a bash at refactoring calc_blows as you describe, but then I thought, this is silly - it's a lot of work on something that desperately needs a total overhaul. If we're going to move away from the hard-coded table (and I fervently believe we should, for all sorts of reasons which have already been debated), it will be easy to write the new calc_blows with calling from birth.c in mind (as well as calling during the normal object/combat handling code).

Please, Takkaria, can we have some guidance about the future of the blows calculation? (This could be your equivalent of Ben's move to fractional speed!)

Moving to some kind of formula seems sensible, with some kind of fractional blows system like in Ironband. Past that... I've not really played in the last three to four months so I'm rather vague on the entire thing.

[TJS]

Please, Takkaria, can we have some guidance about the future of the blows calculation? (This could be your equivalent of Ben's move to fractional speed!)

FWIW, in the meantime I think ajps's stat-buying implementation is good enough for newbies (once it's tweaked to incorporate the latest feedback about DEX 18/10, CON etc.).

Yes the whole blows calculation seems a bit strange to me.

You could change it so if you somewhere between 1 and 2 blows per turn perhaps you could get a % chance of an extra blow. Between 2 and 3 you could get 2 and a chance of another one etc.

While I'm at it how's about increasing damage dice on heavier weapons to compensate for the lower number of blows?

[Atarlost]

I would treat extra blows the same way as extra shots. That way you can use the fractional speed system to get fractional extra blows.

[Magnate]

I would treat extra blows the same way as extra shots. That way you can use the fractional speed system to get fractional extra blows.

I agree - it also has the advantage of making V combat internally consistent, and requiring less new code.

Thanks to Takkaria for the steer.

@TJS: it's likely that some weapons will need rebalancing after a fractional blows system is implemented - but don't say too much about extra dice or people will think you want O combat!!

(I'm a big fan of O combat.)

[PowerDiver]

I would treat extra blows the same way as extra shots. That way you can use the fractional speed system to get fractional extra blows.

If we go down this path, I will try to push for melee accomplished via auto-repeat on individual single swings until disturbed. That mostly eliminates hack-and-back and also reduces being double-moved upon in combat, both big plusses IMO.

[Zikke]

You may have meant this, but in my own words:

If a game engine provides for "multiple blows per round" or shots per round, then they should all fire at once and not allow the player to use part of them and then move midway through the round.

So if somebody had 2 shots per round, their bow would automatically fire twice when used. (Or for a different perspective, would notch and fire two arrows with the same string pull.)