Preliminary work on combining Priest/Mage books

[Jungle_Boy]

I went through the spell.txt edit file and deleted all duplicate spells as well as combined some spells such as bless/prayer and cure light/serious/mortal wounds. I also combined some spells that were very similar like detect evil and detect monsters. Then I further went through and created a list of mage only spells and priest only spells and a third school that belongs to both. The end result is 20 mage spells, 20 priest spells and 41 combo spells. This gives us exactly 81 which could be fit into 9 books. I have not done anything as far as deciding what spells should go into which books but I think it should be a mix from all three schools, if your character cannot use a certain spell it just says <illegible> like it does now. Anyway, let me know what you think. I'll attach the .txt file here.

[PowerDiver]

Phase and portal are not compatible. Phase is a combat spell and Portal is an escape spell. The point is that eventually a priest needs both. It might be reasonable to consider teleport self and portal to be the same spell. This is problematic since getting portal early is required for my priests to survive.

Detect invisible and sense invisible also are not really compatible, although this is less of a problem since at least a priest won't need to learn both. If this was the only problem, I would be able to ignore it.

Detect enchantment is either going to change or to disappear. With the changes to deep object drops [for less junk], there is simply no point to having it in addition to detect treasure.

Slow poison should just go away, along with the potion.

Lesser and greater recharging are meant to be one in a town book and another in a dungeon book, so I do not think they can be combined.

You could combine brand weapon with brand ammo for a "brand" spell that works differently for the different classes. IMO brand ammo is too powerful and brand weapon is insignificant so both could go away.

IMO enchant weapon and enchant armor should go.

The cure spells before healing are meant to be different, for different amounts of curing. The mage class needs to get at least one.

The bless spells are importantly different not because of duration, but because it is necessary for a priest to have access to at least one of them. For a priest not carrying all books, said player is happier if there are multiple versions so that at least one will be in the collection of books carried. This argument applies to a lesser extent to the various light cures.

Remove fear should go away. Heroism/berserk or nothing.

Remove curse -- I have no support for this idea yet -- I will argue this spell should be eliminated, but that may take years for people to accept my reasons.

Turn undead could be combined with scare monster.

Is detection only a priest spell? I guess that is right. That is strange in the sense that it makes no sense.

Probing IMO should not exist.

Rend soul [misnamed IMO] is listed with the priest spells, but is definitely a mage spell, being less effective against evil and undead.

Alter Reality IMO should not exist. Teleport level is enough.


If after your work you have too many mage spells, there are some that I think should be priest spells instead, but that is a different discussion.

[Atarlost]

Cloud Kill and Ice Storm are just scaled up versions of Stinking Cloud and Cold Ball. I'm not sure how interesting they actually are. It would probably be worthwhile to get input from people who play V spellcasters frequently. I suspect each player uses only a small subset of available spells and some spells are used by very few people or by nobody.

This is actually a good opportunity to rethink the spell list from scratch. I'm not sure I agree with the way DPT and DPM are balanced and I don't know that I agree with elemental spells being all just color changes. Why not make lightning bolt jump from target to target, replace cold ball with a wedge projection, and other things to differentiate them?

[Jungle_Boy]

Phase and portal are not compatible. Phase is a combat spell and Portal is an escape spell. The point is that eventually a priest needs both. It might be reasonable to consider teleport self and portal to be the same spell. This is problematic since getting portal early is required for my priests to survive.

I see your point, I was thinking of them as both being short range teleports which is why I combined them. Perhaps combining portal and teleport selfwould be more appropriate since they are both escapes. Combining them does not preclude your priest from getting them early.

Detect invisible and sense invisible also are not really compatible, although this is less of a problem since at least a priest won't need to learn both. If this was the only problem, I would be able to ignore it.

I thought the only difference was the duration but I guess detect lets you see invisible monster you are not in line of sight to. Since sense invisible just see invisible that wears off perhaps we don't need that one.

Detect enchantment is either going to change or to disappear. With the changes to deep object drops [for less junk], there is simply no point to having it in addition to detect treasure.

Slow poison should just go away, along with the potion.

Fine with me

Lesser and greater recharging are meant to be one in a town book and another in a dungeon book, so I do not think they can be combined.

As far as I know the only difference is base chance of success. Seems like this could be worked into one spell.

You could combine brand weapon with brand ammo for a "brand" spell that works differently for the different classes. IMO brand ammo is too powerful and brand weapon is insignificant so both could go away.

I agree, I was thinking of moving brand weapon to a much earlier book and maybe something should be done to tone down brand ammo but it sure is nice when you have it.

IMO enchant weapon and enchant armor should go.

Go or stay makes no difference to me, does make it easier to keep your armor and gear enchanted though.

The cure spells before healing are meant to be different, for different amounts of curing. The mage class needs to get at least one.

So the difference in these would be the status effects cured, that makes sense. I also think the changes to potions should be applied to these spells. I'm not convinced that the mage class "needs" one, especially since the one they have now is useless beyond very early game.

The bless spells are importantly different not because of duration, but because it is necessary for a priest to have access to at least one of them. For a priest not carrying all books, said player is happier if there are multiple versions so that at least one will be in the collection of books carried. This argument applies to a lesser extent to the various light cures.

I always carry at least one of every book I know spells in and I almost never use these spells anyway. Since we are redesiging stuff we can just make sure that every book has some useful spells and then this spell is available.

Remove fear should go away. Heroism/berserk or nothing.

Remove curse -- I have no support for this idea yet -- I will argue this spell should be eliminated, but that may take years for people to accept my reasons.

Turn undead could be combined with scare monster.

Is detection only a priest spell? I guess that is right. That is strange in the sense that it makes no sense.

Probing IMO should not exist.

I agree with all this especially if Takkaria is gonna snag the curse changes Nick is working on for FA

Rend soul [misnamed IMO] is listed with the priest spells, but is definitely a mage spell, being less effective against evil and undead.

The reason I put it with priest spells is because of the name. We should probably change the name or the effect.

Alter Reality IMO should not exist. Teleport level is enough.

Sounds good

If after your work you have too many mage spells, there are some that I think should be priest spells instead, but that is a different discussion.

I don't see why it has to be a different discussion. This was mostly intended as a consolidation rather than taking out spells I didn't like or didn't think should be in there.

[PaulBlay]

Incidentally, in Angband/64 you start with a blank book and find/buy spells to transcribe into it. Maybe a similar setup would let you pick your favourite spells and leave you requiring fewer books when you go diving.

[Daniel Fishman]

If you must do this - and I still don't see the point, but anyway - do it properly, and redo the spell lists completely, instead of trying to fudge the two current lists together.

[PowerDiver]

I thought the only difference was the duration but I guess detect lets you see invisible monster you are not in line of sight to. Since sense invisible just see invisible that wears off perhaps we don't need that one.

I always carry at least one of every book I know spells in and I almost never use these spells anyway. Since we are redesiging stuff we can just make sure that every book has some useful spells and then this spell is available.

These two comments baffle me. SI is the difference between life and death when a death drake or ethereal dragon or Adunaphel tracks you down from outside detection range after you take a few steps. Even if the mana were available, it would be far too tedious to detect invis every 3 steps. In a game about inventory management, assuming a player will want to carry all spellbooks is, to reuse the word, baffling.

[bebo]

In a game about inventory management, assuming a player will want to carry all spellbooks is, to reuse the word, baffling.

You are right, but making said spells available only in one spellbook would actually make inventory management more relevant AND reduce spell clutter. Giving incentives to carry additional books is a good thing i think, and the decision between taking one down in the dungeon in the place of an utility item or a free slot should be made as meaningful and excruciatingly painful as possible

I'm working on a few suggestions myself, on the line of what jungle_boy did (ie mage only, priest only, and mixed spells, which is an excellent idea imho), when i'm done i'll post with detailed explanations for each choice

[bebo]

Here goes, I think i did a pretty through job

warning - long text

EDIT: I see now that the text may be formatted like crap; when i have some time i'll try to improve the layout. damn

[PowerDiver]

Speaking of "Rend Soul"

The reason I put it with priest spells is because of the name. We should probably change the name or the effect..

The correct name is "Nether Beam that inexplicably does only 1/2 damage versus nether-susceptible evil".

[thorgot]

Detect enchantment is either going to change or to disappear. With the changes to deep object drops [for less junk], there is simply no point to having it in addition to detect treasure.

How is there no point to it? I thought detect treasure only detected money, and I like being able to know where items are.

In fact, it was my favorite new spell when I started playing Angband instead of Moria and I would sorely miss it if it were removed.

[Jungle_Boy]

How is there no point to it? I thought detect treasure only detected money, and I like being able to know where items are.

In fact, it was my favorite new spell when I started playing Angband instead of Moria and I would sorely miss it if it were removed.

Detect treasure now detect objects as well

[thorgot]

Detect treasure now detect objects as well

Objection withdrawn.

[Taha]

This discussion looks to have been dropped for a little while; maybe all the questions have been resolved. But it left me wondering; does dropping detect enchantment presume that mages and rangers will be able to get the detect treasure spell? Since that is currently illegible in my copy of spellbook 1.

Some of these other changes would be very welcome, especially if they lead to more useful high level books and the ability to leave behind a few more early ones. Right now for a ranger I don't even bother with Kelek's, and for mages and rangers both, 1 copy of Tenser's stays at home. I never use Heroism or Berserker (usually have rfear by that point), Enchant armor is basically useless on my artifact or ego armor that late in the game, and enchant weapon and elemental brand are mostly useful for creating decent ammo from the store. Greater Recharging might be nice, but nowhere near worth carrying the book for.
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LIVE SEX WEBSHOWS

[PowerDiver]

This discussion looks to have been dropped for a little while; maybe all the questions have been resolved.

Nothing was resolved, but LOS discussion is more important, and 3.1.1+ discussion is more important still.