We need more people.

[Larvitz]

Well I was thinking today... after reading a thread about how many people actually actively play Angband and other roguelikes, and having played them for a couple years now, I realize...

That not enough people play these games. I mean, with the depth of gameplay, and the fact that with replayability the way it is, I simply don't understand why more people don't play these... is it because they are turned off to the graphics? Or because they don't want to think enough to play a game such as this?

That being said, I think we should try to find a way to get Angband ((and its variants)) out to more people, because especially with fans of RPG's, I feel if more people knew about them... that we would have a much larger and more lovely community.

Does anyone have any ideas? =]

Oh, and forgive me if I have placed this thread in the wrong forum division thingy... I wasn't sure which one to put it in.

[Narvius]

Hm.
First of all, Roguelikes require more-than-average patience. Also, a certain open-mindedness - during one IT class at school ("IT". Very funny. We were doing Excel. Boring.) I played Angband, and my neighbor looked at me like if I was some kind of freak.

A major point are graphics, naturally. Not only because graphic-ized games are easier accessible. No, having that huge shiny sword is kind of a reward itself, independently of it's usefulness. Or, there are these semi-free MMORPG's, where you can buy clothes (!) for real cash (!!). And people actually get this stuff. Because it looks nice.
Now compare that to Angband.

Third point.
Permadeath.
While I love this mechanic myself, I see why people could hate it. New players often spend a long time getting to a point a trained *Bander reaches within minutes. That's a huge loss compared to little gain.

Last point.
Try Nethack. Even with more than a year *Banding experience, I'm puzzled what actually is going on there.
Roguelikes, generally, are difficult. VERY difficult. I'm still not halfway through the dungeon.

Uh, yeah.
Also, you're wrong aiming at the RPG players. The point of RPG's is, basically, the story, or, more precisely, storytelling. And, let's admit it, Angband has none.
And I warn you, do *not* call games like Diablo, Sacred and whatnot RPG =P
Hm. Frankly, there are only two differences between modern Hack'n'Slash-Action-RPG's and Roguelikes: Graphics and Realtime/Turn-Basedness. They are our prey! =D

[Larvitz]

LOL, you're right. The shiny sword is just too much temptation... I neeeeed it.....

But those are all really good points... I guess Roguelikes will always have a limited user base, because most people simply don't want to invest the time or effort it takes to actually get good at a game where you can't ((normally)) simply reload your saved game after doing something monumentally stupid.

I dunno. After playing roguelikes... other "RPG's" just seem really simple. It's not nearly as much of a challenge... and I don't feel nearly as good when something awesome happens in them... eh. It is our bane as RL players! We have found something better...

And now we can never go back. =P

[Zikke]

Regarding what Narvius said about RPGs, I think the definition of "RPG" has changed in the vernacular to no longer truly mean "role playing". Nowadays, RPG is a game where you take a character and develop them over time and it's usually in a fantasy setting. The old-school RPG definition would probably still fit with Diablo as well, since it actually has a good story and each area you go into has purpose with this lore and it can be quite immersive when you take the time to look at your surroundings.

That being said, *band games technically have a story behind why you're doing what you're doing but in general it is all itemization and combat. However the number one thing these games have going for them (in my opinion), which is the best thing that RPGs have and why games like WoW are ridiculously successful) is the sense of improvement. You can watch yourself gain more powerful and get cooler spells and better gear and crush the low-level monsters that used to give you trouble. Artifacts (i.e. unique items) and rare drops are the paramount of repeat playability. Grinding for that one sweet piece that will make your day. Blizzard is the king of this and it started with Diablo, and they expanded on it tremendously with WoW. There is always a carrot on a stick in front of the player. I think the *bands has this on a more simplified level.

Other aspects are that it doesn't require installation files, so people can use it at work, on portables, or other places where games are normally off limits.

It is stateless; you can save and walk away at any time and pick it back up instantly.

It is extremely CPU- and graphics-light, though the ASCII does alienate a lot of people. I have found the people who appreciate old-school gaming things (I have a good techno remix of the Bubble Bobble theme) because they don't mind the ASCII and they can appreciate games from an era where the graphics were expected to suck so they had to make the games really fun.


edit: And for people who are afraid of perma-death, just tell them to save scum until they come to terms with it. It's better than not playing *bands at all.

[HallucinationMushroom]

The trick is to hook players while they are young by lacing the game shamelessly with addictive properties and then handing out free samples.

[Narvius]

Uhm.
Sounds like a plan! =D

[Larvitz]

LOL, we're so set.

Lacin the 'band with some coooooocaine.... doo doo doo doo doo... ^_^

[Stossel]

Roguelikes also don't have any sort of advertising machine. They have their advocates, but outside of an IRC channel or these forums (both of which someone who doesn't play roguelikes isn't likely to stumble across), you're going to have a hard time finding advocates. I think they'd enjoy more popularity if more people simply knew about them. The graphics will turn many away, but there are a lot of gamers out there, and not all of them will ignore great gaming just because of the graphics.

A few articles on some gaming sites as to why roguelikes are still awesome and better than most of what you can buy off the shelf would bring in a few folks I bet.

[Narvius]

We should probably team up with the MUDders, they have kind of the same problems too =P

[buzzkill]

I played rogue-likes in the past, but was re-introduced to them when I stumbled across FA on download.com. Maybe posting more variants in such places will help.

[Nick]

I played rogue-likes in the past, but was re-introduced to them when I stumbled across FA on download.com. Maybe posting more variants in such places will help.

That's good to hear, because it's exactly why I did it.

My view on this is that roguelikes appeal to a (small) proportion of the (large) gaming population, and will continue to. The proportion is smaller now that there is more variety of games available, but the population is also larger.

I think the best thing we can do is just keep awareness up. I read something on rgrd about advertising on download sites, which hadn't occurred to me before. So FA version 0.2.3 got put on versiontracker, download.com and happy penguin, which resulted in it getting splashed all around the place.

The other big advantage of roguelikes is that they can be ported to just about anything. Making progress on getting *bands running on portables is IMO one of the best things we can do to maintain/increase our player base.

[Donald Jonker]

Call me a snob, but I take a sort of pleasure in the relative obscurity of the roguelike community in general, and the *band community in particular. The *band community has the benefit of both active development and loyal fans, which is quite unique, making the quality of discussion uncommonly high (naturally there are exceptions, and I include some of my own posts in this), when suggestions are made in earnest and taken seriously and often acted upon. Roguelikes are esoteric by design: they require extreme commitment which tends to weed out immature undesirables, and the overall discourse is better for it. I suppose this is to say that exclusivity isn't desirable as an end unto itself, but it might be viewed as a sign that some things are being done right.

Then again, I would probably feel differently if I were a maintainer.

[Narvius]

I agree with you.
I'd like to cite the MUDders I previously mentioned.
Some of you might know the site Kongregate, a rather popular Flash Portal.
Iron Realms Entertainment, one of the more successful MUD companies, published a flash client for their games there, announcing the existance of MUDs to the world.
Now there's a *long* argument if that was wise or not, as publicity means a lot of bashing by the "spoiled WoW-crowd".

You get my point =D

[Nick]

Roguelikes are esoteric by design: they require extreme commitment which tends to weed out immature undesirables, and the overall discourse is better for it.

Yeah, I agree with that. But I don't think it is a reason not to advertise widely - in fact, the opposite. Those not really interested will bugger off soon enough, and we're left with the ones who are. But without advertising, there's a danger that a roguelike might die off just from lack of oxygen.

And note that by advertising, I'm not meaning full-page spreads in the daily papers. Just making the information available to those who might be interested.

[Malak Darkhunter]

I think some of the best advertising are the ones I've seen on free games websites, I've found a few roguelikes there, places were people go to kill some time and play games for free. They may not have heard about the game, but at least it's there for them to look at.