tome 4, frustrating

[DaviddesJ]

I think Let's Play's are really useful in this respect. If you choose the right one, you can really see how experienced people play, with explanation as you go, even.

I like knowing how the game works so that I can figure out how to play, but I really, really don't like learning by seeing how other people play, or being taught "the right way" to play. I don't think I'm alone in that.

[fizzix]

I like knowing how the game works so that I can figure out how to play, but I really, really don't like learning by seeing how other people play, or being taught "the right way" to play. I don't think I'm alone in that.

I enjoy watching people play games that I don't have time to learn myself. That's sort of my motivation.

Another motivation is that when I cast a game, I get a lot of feedback and comments that help me improve, which is pretty cool.

[DaviddesJ]

Yeah, I'm totally not criticizing the idea or suggestion of watching other people play. I'm just saying that's not going to be to everyone's tastes. I may also be underestimating it, never having tried it. Are you talking about a video, or some other kind of replay? I'd be a lot more interested if I could go through someone else's game at my own pace, rather than having to watch a video. But that would require a system that records keystrokes and events and can replay them and pause at any point.

[Patashu]

Yeah, I'm totally not criticizing the idea or suggestion of watching other people play. I'm just saying that's not going to be to everyone's tastes. I may also be underestimating it, never having tried it. Are you talking about a video, or some other kind of replay? I'd be a lot more interested if I could go through someone else's game at my own pace, rather than having to watch a video. But that would require a system that records keystrokes and events and can replay them and pause at any point.

Isn't this what a ttyrec is designed for?

[DaviddesJ]

Isn't this what a ttyrec is designed for?

That's better than video, probably, but not as good as a complete replay tool. The ideal tool (which I admit is probably more trouble than it's worth) would record the game actions, and allow a viewer to step through them as quickly or slowly as they like, and do other things like view the player inventory whenever they want. Can ttyrec even record multiple windows? If not, it's going to be pretty hard to follow what's in a player's inventory, for example, if you can only view it when the player actually did.

[Nick]

I'm not sure why you are comparing tome4 to angband, they are very far apart in game design and philosophy. Tome did evolve from angband, but now it is almost unrecognizably different. You might get more explanations of why things were designed as they were if you post on the te4 forums.

To be fair, he is posting in the ToME section of the Angband forums.

Historical note for those not around at the time: the ToME section here was made because the then ToME forums had been overrun with spam, and so pav offered refuge. The ToME community made other arrangements fairly quickly, which is why the ToME section here is almost unused, except for DarkGod advertising new versions

[jrodman]

Game replays are pretty good tools for learning deep competitive games that last between 20 minutes and an hour. I'm doubtful that they're really a very effective way to learn games that take days. I'm sure it *can* work, but you'd really have to focus on how to scan quickly through the parts where you're not learning to the parts where you would learn, to make it time-efficient.

[jrodman]

I'm not sure why you are comparing tome4 to angband, they are very far apart in game design and philosophy. Tome did evolve from angband, but now it is almost unrecognizably different. You might get more explanations of why things were designed as they were if you post on the te4 forums.

As is usual when a game is criticized, some defenders attempted to claim the criticisms invalid. Comparing against other games in the genre (multiple) is useful to show how problems are addressed by others. The expectation isn't that it be the *same* as the others, but that it solve those problems in some way.

[Raajaton]

I've been playing a lot of Tome4 lately myself. Although it certainly isn't perfect, I think it's a fuckin great game. After playing for a couple of months now, I finally got my first win (Thaloren Wyrmic).

As far as monster information goes it does give you quite a bit of information. More information than Angband infact, except that it doesn't go into detail about what kind of attacks they have. However, even upon seeing an enemy for the first time it does display a wealth of information. Reading this information is fairly straight forward - the advanced tutorial goes into pretty good detail on showing you what to look for.

As far as being thrust into areas you're not prepared for, that comes with experience as well. When you first started playing Angband you wouldn't have known how to gauge if you're strong enough to dive. You go a little further than you should, you die, lesson learned.

What I really like about the game is the focus on cooldowns moreso than consumables. Particularly when it comes to escapes. You really have to make solid decisions when you get in trouble, rather than firing off 4 or 5 phase doors until you get to somewhere you want to be.

Anyway, nothing in the game is impossible. I think if you stick with it and just learn the game you'll have a lot of fun with it.

[emulord]

jrodman, Im glad someone is saying it.
Tome4 looked pretty, but then seemed to plop me in a game with random difficulty sections, requiring spoileriffic sections, and no easy way to grind to improve.

If a game has ironman-like unrepeatability, it better at least have a clear direction of increasing danger.

[fizzix]

jrodman, Im glad someone is saying it.
Tome4 looked pretty, but then seemed to plop me in a game with random difficulty sections, requiring spoileriffic sections, and no easy way to grind to improve.

Angband is one of the very few games that allows grinding. Nearly every other roguelike actively discourages it, either by using a hunger clock (like Sil's forced dive) or by making finite enemies/areas.

The main criticism that fans of other roguelikes have of angband is that it is way too grindy. It's not surprising that if you are a fan of this type of gameplay, that you will not be a fan of Tome.

If a game has ironman-like unrepeatability, it better at least have a clear direction of increasing danger.

Tome's solution is to give multiple lives, so you aren't penalized too harshly for making an error in judgment. It's probably not the best solution, but it is far less spoiler-needing than some other games like Nethack or Adom.

[emulord]

Multiple lives don't help too much since you cant respec(AFAIK) or grind to get more $/equipment.

Sure most roguelikes discourage grinding, but most RPGs don't. It feels terrible to play suboptimally while learning. You end up a strategic failure and suicide is the only option.
Honestly, I think tome is too long to have forced ironman be the only game type :P. DoomRL, Ironband, quickband, moria, rogue, etc are all fine as ironman because they're shorter and each level is more or less the same.

[fizzix]

Multiple lives don't help too much since you cant respec(AFAIK) or grind to get more $/equipment.

Sure most roguelikes discourage grinding, but most RPGs don't. It feels terrible to play suboptimally while learning. You end up a strategic failure and suicide is the only option.
Honestly, I think tome is too long to have forced ironman be the only game type :P. DoomRL, Ironband, quickband, moria, rogue, etc are all fine as ironman because they're shorter and each level is more or less the same.

Tome went the way preferred by most other roguelike players and developers. I don't fault them for this. The list of roguelikes with a forced clock is long, it includes Adom (hunger + corruption, i'm not sure if they have persistent levels), Nethack (level clearing), DCSS (level clearing), FTL (clock), Sil (clock). Angband sort of sticks out as the only game that doesn't have a real hunger clock or a requirement to constantly go deeper. It is the only major roguelike I can think of that allows for infinite scumming. And it exists for players like you who don't like the mainstream option. It's why ironman, or forced-descent will always be options, and why they will never be default.

[DaviddesJ]

Adom does have persistent levels except in one dungeon. But it does have a fair bit of grinding that you can do there. The clock exists but is relatively slow.

[Patashu]

ADoM is actually about as grind heavy as Nethack is, spoiled. You can do a lot of stat boosting, polymorphing, herb farming, etc. Angband is unlike ADoM/Nethack in that the best ways to scum it don't require you to be very spoiled about deep mechanic interactions etc.