Sil-Q 1.5 beta, first release

[Quirk]

Will you be updating the file on the github repository once you've processed the comments?

There will be a new beta at some point, after I've figured out a way to deal with Rage and slays. Currently the rendering function only knows about character data and has no knowledge at all of the wider context of what's going on, which makes Rage somewhat interesting to implement...

Never cared much for characters walking around with five sets of armor and half a pharmacy's worth of instant-effect potions in their back pocket..

Agreed on the armour, though I think it's unavoidable to a large extent; even Unreal World, which I think is probably the most simulationist roguelike by some way doesn't manage to fully get round that. On the potions front, well, some have close to instant effect in canon (Orcish liquor springs to mind), but I would like at least some pretence at our items being canon. Potions of Dexterity don't really cut it on that score for me.

Luthien incidentally does have the help of a magic item to send Carcharoth to sleep in the Lay of Leithian - the cloak she enchanted earlier. Definitely not a staff though.

EDIT: was able to replicate the inventory visual glitch; I think that when the last item on the inventory is shifted upwards (eg when you drop/use an item above it) half of the tile remains on the empty row.

This is helpful, thanks. Fixing these kinds of things can be a royal pain but at least I know they exist. Have noted it at https://github.com/sil-quirk/sil-q/issues/20.

[Bill Peterson]

I’ve had a busy few weeks recently but I wanted to chime in and say that I’ve read through and noted all comments related to the tiles. I appreciate the feedback quite a bit.

Will you be updating the file on the github repository once you've processed the comments?

[MicroChasm]

I’ve had a busy few weeks recently but I wanted to chime in and say that I’ve read through and noted all comments related to the tiles. I appreciate the feedback quite a bit.

EDIT: Pretty sure the tiles for Hauberks/Corslets are mixed up? The latter looks heavier than the former.

It’s not that the tiles are swapped, just an error in their representation on my part. This is a valuable type of critique, let me know if anything else feels out of place or unbalanced.

[Infinitum]

However, we currently have an assortment of very unTolkienish consumables. I would like to make this less gamey, but reducing the variety of items to be found in Sil from its already spartan state does not seem to be an option. The question is what I can do to ensure that things that are necessary from a gameplay perspective, to make the game interesting, do not sit too jarringly with the source material.

We're in agreement here, hence my trying to contort consumables into non-physical items. Never cared much for characters walking around with five sets of armor and half a pharmacy's worth of instant-effect potions in their back pocket..

I think this would be a stretch. Scrying in Tolkien is as far as I am aware always done with the assistance of a magical item or pool. Gandalf works illusions, but elves do not - with the possible exception of Finrod's "song of changing and shifting shape", but that's very evidently under Songs. Elven magic in general is either based on songs or magical items - Beleg's whetting spell being an exception, but it is structured much like Finrod and Luthien's songs are.

I can think of a few more examples, vague as they are. In 'Of Maeglin' for an instance Eöl spies Arendhel and "set his enchantments about her so that she could not find the ways out". The resulting Maeglin desperately tries to persuade his mother to reveal the location of Gondolin "or perhaps to read her unguarded mind". Luthien at one point bids Carcaroth to go to sleep (without song). Scrying might be conducted through physical mediums, but everyone and their forebear seems to be able to sense the future, which arguably necessitates sensing yonder in both time and space.

(fake) EDIT: was able to replicate the inventory visual glitch; I think that when the last item on the inventory is shifted upwards (eg when you drop/use an item above it) half of the tile remains on the empty row.

EDIT: Pretty sure the tiles for Hauberks/Corslets are mixed up? The latter looks heavier than the former.

[Quirk]

Mainly a gameplay concern since mithril anything is just strictly better, and it'd be nice to have some late alternatives to sword/greatsword.

This is not at all true with weapons though. Weight is crucial to the damage calculation, and mithril is light. In general, greatswords are still among the least favoured endgame weapons; mithril ones may be competitive now they have the extra damage side, but I see more greataxes killing Morgoth. I expected longswords to gain somewhat from Song of Whetting, but fine/smithed handaxes seem to have benefited at least as much.

If going with rare metals though, Dwarfen Steel is mentioned in the story of Eöl, and Grond (the third age battering ram) was supposedly created out of black steel. Could be the basis for heavier quality items maybe.

Axes don't need the help. They're winning plenty already.

Would the focus points be inherent to the items or the player? Mentioned wands since I recall them recharging over time in ZangbandTk, but that's the only 'band variant I've spent any time with (and over a decade ago at that). If going with words of power style spells, any chance of working in voice usage instead of focus as a limiting factor? There seems to be quite the bit of overlap between the two conceptually.

Ah, rods in Angband.

No, I'm not looking to connect this at all to Voice. Focus would be built up by the player spending time with the item, and limited potentially by both player Will and the item.

My motivation here is not to add words of power. I view "words of power" as very much on the fringe of Tolkien magic, with no real existence in First Age writings; Beleg's spoken whetting spell has much more resonance with Luthien's song to grow her hair into the material of her enchanted cloak than Gandalf's spells of opening and closing. Gandalf himself doesn't seem to need "words of power" to set things on fire or make Gimli's axe leap from his hand or indeed any of a vast number of other things he does gripping his staff.

However, we currently have an assortment of very unTolkienish consumables. I would like to make this less gamey, but reducing the variety of items to be found in Sil from its already spartan state does not seem to be an option. The question is what I can do to ensure that things that are necessary from a gameplay perspective, to make the game interesting, do not sit too jarringly with the source material.

The source material does at least provide us with rings that turn the wearer invisible and orbs that let the user see far places. The concept that the wielder of a wizard's staff might be able to use some portion of the wizard's powers is not a great stretch, though a little anachronistic in a First Age context. I'm prepared to put up with this as a lesser evil than our current limited use staffs that sit in the inventory as multi-use potions.

How to present this portion of wizardry? "Words of power" may be on the fringe, but it's not completely uncanonical, and it is close to the portion of canon where staffs are actually mentioned.

It wouldn't be that much of a stretch to have high perception characters casting scrying spells or having powers of foresight, or really stealthy characters working shadows and illusions and so on and so forth.

I think this would be a stretch. Scrying in Tolkien is as far as I am aware always done with the assistance of a magical item or pool. Gandalf works illusions, but elves do not - with the possible exception of Finrod's "song of changing and shifting shape", but that's very evidently under Songs. Elven magic in general is either based on songs or magical items - Beleg's whetting spell being an exception, but it is structured much like Finrod and Luthien's songs are.

Song is well represented in Sil, but the use of magical items is arguably crude. Staffs could be seen as a bit of a lazy shortcut, used as they are in the source material strictly by wizards, but it saves combing through the assortment of magical objects in Tolkien to answer questions like: what would a magical item that acted like the Phial of Galadriel look like in the First Age?

I am planning to introduce some sort of scrying based on orbs also, but I haven't delved into the design as deeply.

TL/DR:
I don't believe, canonically, that most of these magical abilities belong on any part of the skill tree save for Songs, since characters are not wizards. Magical items in Tolkien do grant abililties in ways separate from Songs, but are not limited in use.

Staffs are probably not ideal as First Age magical items from a canon perspective, but creating a suite of items that are both canon-plausible and balanced for good gameplay will be extremely challenging, and this reduces some of that challenge.

No reason that flavor of staffs couldn't grant actual abilites though? The not-Gandalf's staff could grant, say, song of the trees for an instance. But I digress.

Having a lot of experience now of making items that grant abilities, I would say this is something that has to be done very very sparingly. If the item is common and has no drawback, it can leave little reason to get the ability. I would never put a song ability on a non-artifact item.

So at least some sorcerers then?

Yes, there's a strong implication that while men are not innately magical, they can learn dark arts, and Sauron is said to have taught the Black Numenoreans lore. The Witch-King of Angmar was another such sorcerer, though it's unclear how much of the powers he had were learned and how much drawn from the Ring he wore.

I'm not sure that sorcery is mentioned much in a First Age context outside Gorthaur / Thu / Sauron, Lord of Wizard's Isle. Men of the First Age are mostly Edain or Easterlings, and while the latter do Morgoth's bidding there's little suggestion of any supernatural powers. Shame, I'd love to be able to jam scary human sorcerers in at 950'. An orc unique might fit, but I'd have to jettison a canonical orc unique to make it fit, which feels bad. All the orc colours are used up.

[Infinitum]

Good question. There are two perspectives.
[...]
I'm open to hear arguments from both.

Mainly a gameplay concern since mithril anything is just strictly better, and it'd be nice to have some late alternatives to sword/greatsword.

Personally I wouldn't mind if you cut non-unique Mithril items altogether as they somewhat muck up the equipment balance and make the already easy endgame easier. Same goes for Galvorn Armor; maybe leave Maeglin his personal suit and leave it at that?

If going with rare metals though, Dwarfen Steel is mentioned in the story of Eöl, and Grond (the third age battering ram) was supposedly created out of black steel. Could be the basis for heavier quality items maybe.

It's just history, I guess. Were I coding from scratch the keyset would be much more like Brogue, but between the multiple ways that exist to do everything and the "Angband" keyset option, current Sil players are used to using quite a diverse range of key choices. I suspect many of them would curse me if I took away the keys they were used to using.

Well, if key sets are toggleable and you want to lure in newer players having a simplified moveset as standard would lower the difficulty threshold a great deal (as brogue and ToMe have shown).

Well, the charges are not limited; instead you have Focus points that accumulate over time and which you can spend to cast spells of various costs.

Would the focus points be inherent to the items or the player? Mentioned wands since I recall them recharging over time in ZangbandTk, but that's the only 'band variant I've spent any time with (and over a decade ago at that). If going with words of power style spells, any chance of working in voice usage instead of focus as a limiting factor? There seems to be quite the bit of overlap between the two conceptually.

This is a fair comment, but I would need to do great violence to the ability trees to incorporate spells and words of command (and no, before you say anything, Smithing stays, most players seem to actively enjoy it).

Well, you could.. nevermind. Alternatively, Tolkien never did seem to create any unified system of magic. "Magic" seems to be abilities inherent in the nature of beings more than a force in itself, with those abilities used as another tool in conjunction with other skills.

So, instead of axing or redesigning one tree to incorporate the mystical stuff, you could disseminate them as high tier abilities along all trees. A lot of abilities already do this, eg the old flaming arrows, or listening, or a lot of the current smithing/will tree. It wouldn't be that much of a stretch to have high perception characters casting scrying spells or having powers of foresight, or really stealthy characters working shadows and illusions and so on and so forth.

Also, from a gameplay perspective, staffs that simply grant some small bonus to existing skills are much less interesting than staffs that give new abilities. One issue Sil does have is that many people find its loot "boring". Given our staffs already bestow magical abilities, it seemed best to Tolkienise the way they did so somewhat.

No reason that flavor of staffs couldn't grant actual abilites though? The not-Gandalf's staff could grant, say, song of the trees for an instance. But I digress.

On the spells of Orcs front, do you know of any other references to them? Elves have plenty going on: Beleg's whetting spell, Galadriel enchanting her realm, Glorfindel healing Frodo, there's a fair bit more. Men (outside the Istari) are sketchier - Beorn shifts shape (this may be some innate ability), Aragorn heals (but he has long-distant Maiar blood), the Numenoreans are taught many things by Sauron. I can't think of any examples of Orcish magic being described specifically.

Not off the top of my head. Did some googling, from what I can gather JRR didn't seem to think men/dwarfes/orcs have enough mystical mojo to affect the world around them directly (but then again this is more inferred than stated outright in the books, and some things do seem to change the nature of things eg the rings of power or Morgul-blades). Someone mentions the Goblins ambushing Bilbo's party literally coming out of the walls (although thatwas more likely a cleverly hidden tunnel). There's also the aforementioned Grond from the siege of Gondor:

EDIT: the internet provides: https://np.reddit.com/r/lotr/comment...books/ck8cvty/

Great engines crawled across the field; and in the midst was a huge ram, great as a forest-tree a hundred feet in length, swinging on mighty chains. Long had it been forging in the dark smithies of Mordor, and its hideous head, founded of black steel, was shaped in the likeness of a ravening wolf; on it spells of ruin lay. Grond they named it, in memory of the Hammer of the Underworld of old. Great beasts drew it, orcs surrounded it, and behind walked mountain-trolls to wield it.

So.. someone enchanted it. Likewise for the Morgul blades. Not sure if the Nazgûl/Sauron himself would take the time to create them, and there aren't a whole lot of other dark spirits mentioned as being in his service in the canon. EDIT: Oh wait, the Mouth of Sauron is a human sorcerer (unless sorcery in this context is a byword for charisma/might/general knowledge). So at least some sorcerers then?

[Quirk]

Oh, lest I forget: Mithril Axes when?

Good question. There are two perspectives.

One: mithril armour is canonical, but mithril weapons aren't. Those we have are dubious, should we really have more? And mithril being a very light metal, it's also perhaps questionable as a choice for an axe-head.

Two: mithril weapons aren't canonical, but since we've decided to have them anyway, why not extend to axes also?

I'm open to hear arguments from both.

Nice, albeit they need a "on level" setting to really get staffscumming going..

Well if you have a large enough screen the toggleable out-of-line-of-sight mode may work for you...

Been meaning to ask, but are there any hardcoded reasons why context sensitive commands cannot be used more? Sil doen't have a lot of commands interacting with doors/floor, but it feels like they could be boiled down to [interact with object on current tile] and [interact with object on adjacent tile]?

It's just history, I guess. Were I coding from scratch the keyset would be much more like Brogue, but between the multiple ways that exist to do everything and the "Angband" keyset option, current Sil players are used to using quite a diverse range of key choices. I suspect many of them would curse me if I took away the keys they were used to using.

Anticipate? Pretty synonymous, but is used more often in physical contexts (is/was it used elsewhere though? Feels as though I've seen it in Sil before).

Yup, I used it for a now-retired Melee skill that involved punishing aggressive enemies.

So working a bit like Wands in Angband except with multiple bound spells per Staff?

Well, the charges are not limited; instead you have Focus points that accumulate over time and which you can spend to cast spells of various costs.

Would prefer it if the wizard made the staff and not the other way around, but I'll guess I'll wait for how it pans out. Don't forget the spells of Orcs if going that rote though! Orcish is hinted at having mystical properties as well

This is a fair comment, but I would need to do great violence to the ability trees to incorporate spells and words of command (and no, before you say anything, Smithing stays, most players seem to actively enjoy it).

Also, from a gameplay perspective, staffs that simply grant some small bonus to existing skills are much less interesting than staffs that give new abilities. One issue Sil does have is that many people find its loot "boring". Given our staffs already bestow magical abilities, it seemed best to Tolkienise the way they did so somewhat.

On the spells of Orcs front, do you know of any other references to them? Elves have plenty going on: Beleg's whetting spell, Galadriel enchanting her realm, Glorfindel healing Frodo, there's a fair bit more. Men (outside the Istari) are sketchier - Beorn shifts shape (this may be some innate ability), Aragorn heals (but he has long-distant Maiar blood), the Numenoreans are taught many things by Sauron. I can't think of any examples of Orcish magic being described specifically.

EDIT: There's a graphical glitch where tile symbols in menus remains partially visible when they should've disappeared, eg when swapping cathegories in the known monster/item list. I think I've seen it in the item menu when ID'ing/dropping many items at in short succession but can't reproduce it at the beginning of the game with few, known items.

I'll try to reproduce it. Thanks.

[Infinitum]

Well, the founding of Moria - Khazad-dum - comfortably predates the start of the First Age, and it grew wealthy from trading mithril. Did Telchar and Gamil Zirak have the chance to trade for and work Moria-silver? I'm happy to believe so.

Oh, lest I forget: Mithril Axes when?

Other Sil-Q quality of life improvements you may like are [ and ], which give you a list of visible monsters and visible objects respectively. Someday these may be documented.

Nice, albeit they need a "on level" setting to really get staffscumming going..

Ah, right. Yeah, looking at it the control and / text mentions "disarms/opens chests and searches skeletons", but the , text seems a bit tacked on. I may have to look at reworking that.

Been meaning to ask, but are there any hardcoded reasons why context sensitive commands cannot be used more? Sil doen't have a lot of commands interacting with doors/floor, but it feels like they could be boiled down to [interact with object on current tile] and [interact with object on adjacent tile]?

Outwitted enemies are generally failing to hit you with more than a glancing blow; I get one could argue that if you're so very clever they shouldn't hit you at all, but I don't think it's that bad a fit.

Anticipate? Pretty synonymous, but is used more often in physical contexts (is/was it used elsewhere though? Feels as though I've seen it in Sil before).

I'm thinking of having rebooted staffs be off-hand items that gain Focus depending on time spent and Perception skill, which can be spent on a variety of "Word of" abilities e.g. "Word of Opening" or "Word of Whetting". Focus will be a bit like spell points, and each staff will have a random assortment of abilities.

So working a bit like Wands in Angband except with multiple bound spells per Staff?

It's a bit Gandalfy, and not very First-Agey, but it's much more Tolkienish than the limited-use consumable way staffs work currently and it incorporates the "word of command" and "spells of men and elves" in a way that makes staffs meaningful and doesn't overlap with songs. Quarterstaffs will then perish.

Would prefer it if the wizard made the staff and not the other way around, but I'll guess I'll wait for how it pans out. Don't forget the spells of Orcs if going that rote though! Orcish is hinted at having mystical properties as well:

'I once knew every spell in all the tongues of Elves or Men or Orcs that was ever used for such a purpose. I can still remember ten score of them without searching in my mind. But only a few trials, I think, will be needed; and I shall not have to call on Gimli for words of the secret dwarf-tongue that they teach to none. The opening words were Elvish, like the writing on the arch: that seems certain.'

EDIT: There's a graphical glitch where tile symbols in menus remains partially visible when they should've disappeared, eg when swapping cathegories in the known monster/item list. I think I've seen it in the item menu when ID'ing/dropping many items at in short succession but can't reproduce it at the beginning of the game with few, known items.

[Quirk]

Hey Quirk are you planning on updating this on angband.live, or is the nightly already it?

Once I get back to mechanics I might update angband.live, but the recent changes have been pretty much all tiles, which I don't think angband.live supports.

[wobbly]

Hey Quirk are you planning on updating this on angband.live, or is the nightly already it?

[Quirk]

Oh, right. Didn't notice. Maybe add a blurb about attacking not disabling it to clarify?

It comes right after Dodging in the tree which gives you the bonus for moving on your last turn, so I hope it wouldn't be too ambiguous to a new player as Dodging doesn't give you any bonus for attacking. Writing disambiguating text designed to specify that it's not the legacy behaviour is a wee bit awkward.

!!! Is that a Sil-Q thing? Can't believe I've missed that. Nice! Any chance of having it on by default?

Yup, went in a version or two back. If you save your preferences I think it should stick, but it defaults to off to preserve mystery for those who like that sort of thing.

Other Sil-Q quality of life improvements you may like are [ and ], which give you a list of visible monsters and visible objects respectively. Someday these may be documented.

Agreed, maybe a more thorough rework of them is in order. Kind of coming up dry on more monsters to add otherwise, but the Fell Beasts (Nazgûl mounts) could maybe fit the bill of numerous, loud, fast patrollers to create situations (although having it that deep and underground might be a bit of a stretch):

I have been considering "Mother of the Fell Brood" as a possible unique though as you say a peak on Thangorodrim would seem a more fitting location for her and her children.

[Quirk]

Quirk, are you planning to put back the menu entries for the other graphics tile sets? I was looking forward to seeing how the new tiles were implemented and what could be done to put the Gervais tiles into the new scheme. In 1.4.2 the tiles worked, they just didn't always show the correct images.

No, I have no plans for this. Sil was implemented with a fine disdain for tiles, and it's taken a bunch of work with a very accommodating artist to work round issues caused by showing damage and Listen; I'll clearly need to do more to make Rage fit. There is unlikely to be a reasonable mapping to the Gervais tiles now in any case.

[Quirk]

The help text for "," only talks about picking things up or navigating stairs. I probably should have tried that except that my muscle memory is fixed on "g" to get things off the floor.

Ah, right. Yeah, looking at it the control and / text mentions "disarms/opens chests and searches skeletons", but the , text seems a bit tacked on. I may have to look at reworking that.

[Infinitum]

Does what it says on the tin. In Vanilla you only got the bonus against ranged attackers or if you did not take an action last turn - which made it a very niche player with Focused Attack. Getting the bonus while trading blows makes it a lot stronger.

Oh, right. Didn't notice. Maybe add a blurb about attacking not disabling it to clarify?

Try Options | Interface Options | Know all monster info.

!!! Is that a Sil-Q thing? Can't believe I've missed that. Nice! Any chance of having it on by default?

XP in the lategame is not necessarily an issue if balanced around, particularly with the loss of stat potions. The bigger issue is the avoidance. Looting 950' forever without serious risk because the monsters are slow or territorial trivialises the late game.

Agreed, maybe a more thorough rework of them is in order. Kind of coming up dry on more monsters to add otherwise, but the Fell Beasts (Nazgûl mounts) could maybe fit the bill of numerous, loud, fast patrollers to create situations (although having it that deep and underground might be a bit of a stretch):

a winged creature: if bird, then greater than all other birds, and it was naked, and neither quill nor feather did it bear, and its vast pinions were as webs of hide between horned fingers; and it stank. A creature of an older world maybe it was ...

[Bill Peterson]

Quirk, are you planning to put back the menu entries for the other graphics tile sets? I was looking forward to seeing how the new tiles were implemented and what could be done to put the Gervais tiles into the new scheme. In 1.4.2 the tiles worked, they just didn't always show the correct images.