State of the update

[Quirk]

Sweet. Wouldn't it be easier throwing weapons use the existing quiver slots though (code illiterate asking), retaining the (f/F)ire commands? Could possibly cut some input bloat.

That was my first thought - load throwing weapons into quivers with the use command or have a question input in wield - but that gets into a tangled mess of code that stretches everywhere and relies on things being of type Arrow. Then I discovered Ctrl-T already existed to automatically throw a weapon at the closest enemy; I swapped T and Ctrl T and for a few brief moments was somewhat happy wandering round chucking things at enemies with T out of my new throwing slot.

Once I had a throwing slot though I also found I wanted to show the to hit and damage in the UI. (This would also be messily true if I put it in the archery slot). In short I saw this stretching into a major undertaking and becoming self justifying labour; "All that work in improving the throwing UI and still nobody uses it, throwing weapons need to be better"... "Well, if people had skills that relied on it they would use it..."

I think it's probably better off cut or at least de-emphasised to be a very minor option.

Still looking for something to fill a high skill spot on the Will tree after I move Strength in Adversity down and buff it. I've a couple of ideas for replacing Careful Shot - some kind of arrow knockback effect and something related to light radius - but am not completely happy with either. I have an idea for a new Smithing skill - Reforge - letting you trade an artefact for +1 uses of a forge - not sure if this is potentially broken good at 950 or not good enough. So I'm hanging off on many of these changes until I feel I have an idea I am confident with.

[Serephina]

Ever played Dungeon Crawl? The later Hell levels have a mechanic where the player was blasted at regular but random intervals with what amounted to the ancient foul curse with a smorgosbord of different nasty effects. Something like that, with a greater chance of happening (with nastier effects) as the pc approaches minimum depth? Could make for an interesting alternative to traps in creating tension (tm). Also, minimum depth could be made more apparent on the main hud.

Please don't use Hell Effects, they are mostly tedious, unfun, and poorly balanced. It's one of those ideas that looks better on paper.

[Derakon]

You could start aggressively spawning in roaming guards once the depth clock expires. Combine it with a message like "Morgoth's forces have discovered your presence", and repeat that message every time the player enters a level that's shallower than the depth clock requires. If you really want to stick around and deal with the guards, you can, but it should be weighted (in terms of guard difficulty / frequency / loot) so that that's not generally worth doing.

[Infinitum]

Please don't use Hell Effects, they are mostly tedious, unfun, and poorly balanced. It's one of those ideas that looks better on paper.

Been years and years since I actually played crawl, but I disagree about the tedium part. As I recall the Hell levels were the only ones where my winning 15-runers actually felt threatened past the first few runes due to the uncertainties involved. Also, the incentive to hurry along as opposed to always playing it safe (food not being an issue) was pretty nerve-wracking. Also, "It draws the will of Morgoth" has a better ring than "it incraseases your food consumtion" as an item drawback.

Still looking for something to fill a high skill spot on the Will tree

What about an ablity to have the player save versus death? A simple Will check versus dc(negativehp), if passed the player lives on (with negative hp; meaning consecutive checks get harder unless they heal inbetween). Assuming an endgame will of ~15 including Grace this should hopefully not be too broken compared to extra constitution.

Thus it was that (Fëanor) drew far ahead of the van of his host; and seeing this the servants of Morgoth turned to bay, and there issued from Angband Balrogs to aid them. There upon the confines of Dor Daedeloth, the land of Morgoth, Fëanor was surrounded, with few friends about him. Long he fought on, and undismayed, though he was wrapped in fire and wounded with many wounds; but at the last he was smitten to the ground by Gothmog, Lord of Balrogs, whom Ecthelion after slew in Gondolin. There he would have perished, had not his sons in that moment come up with force to his aid; and the Balrogs left him, and departed to Angband.

Then his sons raised up their father and bore him back towards Mithrim. But as they drew near to Eithel Sirion and were upon the upward path to the pass over the mountains, Fëanor bade them halt; for his wounds were mortal, and he knew that his hour was come. And looking out from the slopes of Ered Wethrin with his last sight he beheld far off the peaks of Thangorodrim, mightiest of the towers of Middle-earth, and knew with the foreknowledge of death that no power of the Noldor would ever overthrow them; but he cursed the name of Morgoth thrice, and laid it upon his sons to hold to their oath, and to avenge their father. Then he died; but he had neither burial nor tomb, for so fiery was his spirit that as it sped his body fell to ash, and was borne away like smoke; and his likeness has never again appeared in Arda, neither has his spirit left the halls of Mandos. Thus ended the mightiest of the Noldor, of whose deeds came both their greatest renown and their most grievous woe.

Classic determinator stuff.

[Quirk]

What about an ablity to have the player save versus death? A simple Will check versus dc(negativehp), if passed the player lives on (with negative hp; meaning consecutive checks get harder unless they heal inbetween). Assuming an endgame will of ~15 including Grace this should hopefully not be too broken compared to extra constitution.

I like this. Will maybe need a little bit of balancing, but something that kicks in and saves you from a deathblow would feel epic enough to be higher on the skill tree.

I'm a little tempted to have it block the deathblow itself, because that way the skill is useful even if you don't have healing potions, possibly at the cost of draining some Will points. Or alternatively, you could be mortally wounded and be unable to heal when below 0, but only die when you reach negative HP equal to your will? There are possibilities here. I like it.

[Quirk]

So I've implemented this as follows:
- when you get struck down and you have this skill, your max HP and current HP get reset to your Will and you are marked as mortally wounded. Your HP will never exceed your Will again. There are some GUI indications that should make this clear and a little message when you're dying.
- CON no longer affects your health.
- It's called "Immortal Courage" - I dislike the name somewhat and if anyone has a better name I'll use it.
- It branches from "Strength in Adversity", and so you'll be at a permanent +2 to STR/DEX/GRA in this mortally wounded state. You just won't have many HP.
- If you disable the skill and take a step, your guts spill out and you die. There is a new custom killed by tag for this.
- I managed to retain savefile compatibility this time.

I've also toned down the experience for chasing monsters off the level a little, after a couple of people voiced the suspicion it might be too good, and set forges to spawn at 100, 400 and 900 - five guaranteed forges is probably also too good.

[Gwarl]

I'm holding off on the update until later because I want to abuse having five forges while I still can.

[Quirk]

I'm holding off on the update until later because I want to abuse having five forges while I still can.

Haha. That's fair.

I'm contemplating how best to rebalance smithing. Choosing what to forge is fun. Ideal would be a situation where every extra few points bought you a little extra utility, but there was no tipping point into Deadly Whirling Sword of Death. That said, the versatility by itself always leaves the skill in danger of turning overpowered.

As it stands it seems like the first things you make can easily exceed the drops you have available at floor 100, but by the time you find your next forge you don't necessarily have XP available to pump more Smithing points, and gaining a couple of points may not be enough to let you smith better gear than the loot you've gathered on your way down anyway. Guaranteed forges make this calculation a little easier, but I think there's still more needing done to solve the problem.

[Derakon]

Would it make sense to have the quality of items you can forge depend in part on the depth at which the forge is found? I don't know how you would explain this in-universe, but it might let you reduce the smithing skill requirements without completely blowing out the power curve of the game (by letting players smith endgame equipment at the first forge).

[Quirk]

Would it make sense to have the quality of items you can forge depend in part on the depth at which the forge is found? I don't know how you would explain this in-universe, but it might let you reduce the smithing skill requirements without completely blowing out the power curve of the game (by letting players smith endgame equipment at the first forge).

We do have enchanted forges which get more common as you go down. Perhaps the forge at 900 could be forced to be an enchanted one? It's a thought.

And in-universe, of course, Morgoth and his most prized smiths dwell in the lower depths; the forges up top are merely to maintain gate guard equipment.

[Infinitum]

I'm contemplating how best to rebalance smithing

Probably not doable in a game centered on finding items. A good start would be preventing the player from assembling a smithing kit and rebalance point costs from there. Removing smithing boosters would be simple enough, but the only internally consistent way to prevent Grace items that I can see is removing items adding stats altogether. Current items adding stats can keep their effect by replacing it with something mechanically similar, e g:

Strength -> "It (greatly) improves your damage". Have sources increasing damage work as strength does currently ie up to current weapon weight.

Dexterity -> Just improve skills directly.

Constitution -> "It (greatly) improves your fortitude"

Grace -> "It (greatly) improves your voice"; improving skills directly (minus smithing, obviously).

My preferred solution would be axing it altogether and replacing it with a skill focused on knowledge/wisdom where the ultimate ability is creating a custom artefact (using the smithing interface).

[seraph]

hey, i'm a little late to the party but here are some thoughts, in no particular order:

one should be able to kill morgoth, it should just be very difficult. a rework of slaying/sharpness will probably do the job.

for smithing getting rid of artistry is the way to go. it also opens up more chances for incremental upgrades. more guaranteed forges also helps.

quarterstaves still seem a bit weak. for comparison a defender bastard sword in both hands is (-2,3d5)[+2] vs (+0,2d4)[+2] and about the same weight. defender quarterstaves might be nice. maybe some quarterstaff ability e.g. half of your dex is added as str. of vaulting gives them good utility. they are also in weird middle ground between wanting to be light for riposte, and heavy for knockback and smashing blow.

i like feint from a balance stand point, dislike it from a flavour stand point.

flavour-wise, i think smashing blow should be limited to blunt weapons and/or capped by str.

cruel blow and crippling shot likely won't need a rework if slaying gets a rework

also it is worth noting that i have yet to beat sil, but i have made it to the throneroom.

edit: also it doesn't make sense flavour-wise that one can pierce an enemy without killing it.

[Patashu]

Smithing used to be good because you could make stuff that's better than floor drops, then floor drops got buffed. So one solution is as follows - make a difficulty modifier that nerfs floor drops, and then in that mode smithing will be viable (or even optimal).

I guess it's not elegant, but I think alternate ways to experience Sil would be interesting.

EDIT: Also since you want names for 'Immortal Courage'. How about 'Raw Determination'? (My b/f jokingly suggests 'Ultra Instinct', referring to a similar ability in Dragon Ball Super, lol)

[Quirk]

quarterstaves still seem a bit weak. for comparison a defender bastard sword in both hands is (-2,3d5)[+2] vs (+0,2d4)[+2] and about the same weight. defender quarterstaves might be nice. maybe some quarterstaff ability e.g. half of your dex is added as str. of vaulting gives them good utility. they are also in weird middle ground between wanting to be light for riposte, and heavy for knockback and smashing blow.

Quarterstaves are a bit weak. At (0, 2d4)[+2] they were just useful enough for wobbly to ditch a curved sword for them, but they don't hold up against later game weapons at all.

i like feint from a balance stand point, dislike it from a flavour stand point.

That it most benefits weapons you wouldn't easily feint with troubles me. Feint sounds like a technique that goes with parry and riposte, and the current design doesn't work like that.

flavour-wise, i think smashing blow should be limited to blunt weapons and/or capped by str.

Yes, Smashing Blow on an extremely heavy great axe is I think too much right now. I'm playing with alternatives.

I am actually thinking of giving blunt weapons some kind of intrinsic advantage - either reducing armour, or stunning. This would potentially allow them to still be useful while having a lower dice pool.

edit: also it doesn't make sense flavour-wise that one can pierce an enemy without killing it.

Depends if one is piercing through the chest (pretty fatal), the abdomen (eventually fatal - but only eventually, which is why rapier duels notoriously frequently led to both parties dying) or the thigh or upper arm (not so fatal unless you hit the femoral artery or the wound gets infected). But Sil doesn't model combat with anything like The Riddle of Steel's realism.

[Infinitum]

- It's called "Immortal Courage" - I dislike the name somewhat and if anyone has a better name I'll use it.

Implacable? Defiance? Relentlessness? Resolve?

But Sil doesn't model combat with anything like The Riddle of Steel's realism.

One solution I've seen and is partial to is replacing the concept of hit points representing health with hit points representing luck. E g replace "Constitution" with something like "Providence", "Destiny" or somesuch and "Hp" with something like "Aegis" or "Fate". Each hit that doesn't reduce this below 0 is effectivly absorbed by the characters plot armor and leaves him (almost) unharmed, and the one that does either kills or cripples him (as it should be).