Shields: anyone ever use them whole game?

[xorzac]

I sure don't! The extra power from a two hander or two weapons or subtlety to me vastly outweighs 1d6 or 1d7 protection.

My solutions are:

1. Add a skill which allows a shield bash when an enemy misses. Bash would do (shield prot) dam, and stun for x rounds. Base stun on amount missed by, and a will check. Riposte would be non shield only (2 free attacks would be too much).

2. Change kite to 2d3. A small boost, though larger for smiths.

3. Add more archers between East archers and cat assassins.

4. Make blocking work for melee always, but only 50% boost. Increase skill cost some to compensate.

These could be adjusted, but the idea is to make using a shield a viable option.

[debo]

Shields already roll protection against breath. (You also get your ring of protection rolls.)

[seraph]

i tend to use round shields because i can't stand the melee penalty. but yeah i eventually ditch it.

1. Add a skill which allows a shield bash when an enemy misses. Bash would do (shield prot) dam, and stun for x rounds. Base stun on amount missed by, and a will check. Riposte would be non shield only.

i don't think they need to be mutually exclusive. in the early to mid game i like shields of deflection [+2] with riposte.

2. Change kite to 2d3. Add a heavier shield at 3d3, with a -2 evade penalty and -2 to hit. This would make shields more worth it.

in general i agree, although 3d3 might be too good.

armor has diminishing returns for additional protection sides (weapons can get crits so they don't). each additional damage side gives less benefit than the one before, approaching but never reaching zero. adding a die however is a significant boost.

that hypothetical 3d3 shield gets a huge boost from the "of protection" ego. plus, a master smith can currently add 3 protection sides to a shield, allowing for the ridiculous protection of 3d6. that's one more side and die than a hauberk. add blocking and something like focused attack and controlled retreat. win.

3. Add more archers between East archers and cat assassins. Add +2 to hit to all existing archers.

more variety sure. but don't forget that archers cut your evasion in half.

4. Make blocking work for melee always, but only 50% boost. Increase skill cost some to compensate.

how does one add half a die?

5. Shields reduce breath dam.

this is already the case. after the little snakes in the early game (new to 1.3?) this protection is negligible if you don't have 2+ sources of resistance.

[debo]

Shields help quite a lot on normal s breaths too. It's the big ones and (obviously) any of the dragons where it's not as noticeable.

[seraph]

yeah that's what i meant to say.

[bron]

Shields: anyone ever use them the whole game?

I've had plenty of characters that do. For instance http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=18575

The protection is nice, but realistically the main reason is because I don't want to give up the equipment slot: a shield of Deflection, or (as in the example) a shield of Frost, or even an artifact shield if you get lucky, can be a powerful addition to your kit.

That said, there are of course situations where the additional damage is a must: killing a Grotesque, or the climactic battle in the Throne Room.

[taptap]

I honestly don't understand how any of Xorzacs chars survives with low will, low evasion, mediocre armour. When I do, I may not like defensive abilities / shields anymore as well.

[wobbly]

I usually do up until the throne room. Depends on the build.

I honestly don't understand how any of Xorzacs chars survives with low will, low evasion, mediocre armour. When I do, I may not like defensive abilities / shields anymore as well.

I've a suspicion I do but it's hard to tell from reading the dump. Had a few goes trying to match it & for the early game I can get faster but so far I've messed up before reaching the late game. Xorzac can correct me if I'm wrong but essentially it's a berserker build. You can survive with low defense if everything is dead, confused or fleeing. Dead/incapacitated enemies are the safest enemies sort of thing.

I don't think the issue is with shields, anymore then there's an issue with haubereks because they're bad on a stealth build or an issue with leather armour because it's bad on a high protection build.

3. Add more archers between East archers and cat assassins. Add +2 to hit to all existing archers.

I'll agree with this if you put a 1 con or less Edain through & still think it's a good idea.

[xorzac]

I honestly don't understand how any of Xorzacs chars survives with low will, low evasion, mediocre armour. When I do, I may not like defensive abilities / shields anymore as well.

I actually do throw a shield on mid depth for East archers/orc archers.

Dodge boosts evade by 3, which helps, as I posted elsewhere, keep moving. Exploit the AI and force them to waste turns moving.

I usually get clarity or a helm swap for res conf/stun. I have fear res too. With those, will not a necessity.

I usually have higher armor/evade before I hit the throne room, and ditch those items because damage is key in there. At one point I think I had 7-23 which is really good.

Slays seem to greatly reduce enemy morale, for some reason. That helps.

As wobbly said, fleeing/incapacitated/dead enemies are the best kind.

Xorzacs also had version 1.1.1, which is probably easier than 1.3. I also killed a lot of characters before learning the AI and what to do/not do. Some still die mid depth.

I also do not dawdle at low depth. Notice the fast diving toward the end. Too much can kill that build down there!


Wow, wobbly, if you can get faster, my hat goes off to you! Even at the high depths, an accomplishment.

And lastly, whirlwind helps. Hitting a bunch at once if needed can really speed the killing.


Add: xorII got lucky as hell with artifacts. No other char of mine has had that kind of luck!

2nd add: the AI tries to surround you by occupying opposite sides first, then pile on one side. Make then keep trying to do that by always moving. I fight 85%+ of my battles in open rooms or places where I can easily keep shifting positions. Zoc gives you a free attack each time they move, so you can get 3 or 4 freebies a round sometimes!

[Thraalbee]

I use Round Shield of Deflection [+2,1d4] a lot with Evasion builds. Those characters are typically not very strong anyway and another +2 to evasion can make quite a difference. Not long ago I reached evasion 41 before throne room. Won the game even if I failed to kill Morgoth. On the other hand he had no chance to get a direct hit unless I was blind, in a pit or similar.

[xorzac]

I use Round Shield of Deflection [+2,1d4] a lot with Evasion builds. Those characters are typically not very strong anyway and another +2 to evasion can make quite a difference. Not long ago I reached evasion 41 before throne room. Won the game even if I failed to kill Morgoth. On the other hand he had no chance to get a direct hit unless I was blind, in a pit or similar.

I bet riposte was sweet with that much evade!

So an edit to my top post. Eliminate #5 obviously. And the 3d3 shield. What about the rest? I've used shields at times but they really seem to lack end game.

[bagori nd]

I don't think shields need a buff. Sure, they fall off in late game, but that's just because protection in general falls off in late game. (Even then, artefact or deflection shields are still often worth it.) In early to mid game they can drastically cut down on the damage you take when combined with decent armor, especially against archers.

[taptap]

Dodge boosts evade by 3, which helps, as I posted elsewhere, keep moving. Exploit the AI and force them to waste turns moving.

I usually get clarity or a helm swap for res conf/stun. I have fear res too.

I know and I noticed, but I am talking about entrancement. Sure, you can avoid most dragons, but no one ever tries entrancing you?

Fwiw, I find shields really useful midgame and I appreciated artefact shields much more when I played no-ability runs (the swan shield most of all).

[wobbly]

A shield of frost or hador's shield is going to be nice in the throne room if you've got a lot of big breathers, same with deflection on a riposte build. Some weapons will handle Morgoth even with a shield & there's no reason to go without the extra protection if you can kill him with.