Sil: How is minimum depth calculated?

[Matoro]

I was wondering how is minimum depth calculated in Sil? Is it calculated purely based on time spent on the dungeon or is it affected by overall experience, stats and items?

Anyway, I've just started to getting past infamous 250ft-350ft orc deaths and got my first really succesful character all the way down to 600ft (feanorian 2-5-4-3, melee/evasion/perception mostly). I tend to always clear whole levels, and so I've usually got my minimum depth updated fairly regularly to the same level I'm currently at. But when I was cleaning 450ft, my minimum depth eventually fell down to 600ft, so I had to completely skip 500ft-550ft. I got quickly killed by werewolf accompanied with wargs and sulrauko.

Have you had similar problems with minimum depth forcing you to skip levels? And how is minimum depth actually calculated?

[absolutego]

yeah it's just a function of turns:

http://bpaste.net/raw/166757

i've never been more than 50' out of depth, that seems crazy. don't force yourself to kill every fleeing monster.

[debo]

It also helps to be aware of the map size of your current level. I believe there are small, medium, and large map sizes in Sil. If you end up on an unusual number of the latter in the early game and decide to explore them entirely, this can really hose your turncount.

You can get a general gauge of how big your map is by using the map view (shift-M in the 'normal' keyset).

Also, the early levels have the highest density of monsters in the game, which I guess is a bit counterintuitive. As absolutego says, if you try to kill all the orcs you meet in the early game, this will also consume a lot of turns for little benefit, given that their drops are rarely good and the xp scaling kicks in pretty quickly.

[Derakon]

As a general rule, in roguelikes that feature infinitely-generable levels (i.e. you can get a new level by going down then up stairs), there is little point in fully-exploring each level. Sil subverts that a bit with its forge and artifact generation rules, but the principle still should largely hold true. Explore a level until you are strong enough to take on the next one, then proceed. Of course, learning when you're strong enough can be difficult. Similarly, learning to efficiently explore a level so that you don't waste too many turns is distinctly nontrivial.

[bron]

This is one reason why Sprinting is extra valuable. MinDepth is based on turn count, and when you are sprinting you move 3 spaces for only 2 ticks of the clock. This gives you extra turns "for free". I admit the effect is not huge (you don't save *that* many turns), but cumulatively over many levels it can add up.

[BlueFish]

Speed of movement has no effect on turncount - it's a place where Sil deviates from common sense, but IMO for good game design reason. Sprinting would be overly powerful and mandatory if that were the case.

[bron]

Speed of movement has no effect on turncount

Huh. I just tested this and of course you're right. I coulda sworn I'd checked this a long time ago and seen the result I posted earlier. Guess I was hallucinating (or something) ...

[taptap]

<quote>I tend to always clear whole levels</quote>

I tend to as well, but basically the answer is just don't. There is no bonus for tidiness in the game.

[Infinitum]

There is of course the deep satisfacion in knowing no artifact was left behind. Being thorough also minimizes the odds of not having proper equipment by the time nastier monsters starts appearing out of depth. That said, try using the (L)ook command to gauge the size of the dungeon, then start exploring it methodically starting from one of the edges. Don't bother killing mobs for xp; you'll pbe forced to kill enough of each type anyway for the diminishing returns to kick in. Uniques are somewhat excempt as they are often carrying worthwile equipment, but don't be shy abandoning the floor if they are beyond your current power level.

Also, items only spawn in rooms, so don't feel any pressure to walk down all connecting corridors that gets left over after your sweep. Staffs of treasure makes this process quicker later on as they allow you to dive safely without forfeiting valuables.

[emulord]

Seriously, can I have a cheat mode for Sil for "No minimum depth"

I got started in roguelikes because of Cheat death. Forced half-ironman is weird, counterintuitive, harms newbies, breaks theme, etc.
Food and light are already clocks.

A thematic solution would be "The forces of darkness are aware of your presence!" and starting off enemies aggroing towards you or something. This way it simulates a alarm.

[locus]

Light is not a clock at all due to Lesser Jewels and Feanorian Lamps. Food is a clock, but not the sort of clock that keeps you from spending infinite time scumming 550' and 600' for healing potions.

Sil isn't Sil without mindepth and turns-as-a-resource. You could argue that maybe the light-clock and food-clock aren't adding much and they should be removed, though.

[absolutego]

yeah, those two are nearly irrelevant after you've played the game for a while, and i would do away with them myself, but new players can run into problems with them. also flavour.

there are many things i like about sil but at the top of the list is that it plays very fast and most actions are significant. i understand you like what you like, but it makes for a tighter, better game.

if anything i believe there is too much scumming (i'm talking about diving and scumming 950' though, specially with _treasures, which is a different thing).

[taptap]

the notion of diving and scumming 950' is quite incomprehensible for people who run into time problems at 500-600' - although I agree about 950' scumming - how about just not doing it anymore? still, i believe the game should be balanced for the first win, not the tenth. imo default-gameplay when you start out without previous angband exposure is ironman-like "clear floor, go down", not scumming low depths as implied by the last posts.

[locus]

I think scumming 950' stems from a desire to kill the big V - you need really good equipment, lots of consumables, and as much experience as you can get. You don't have to do it if your plan is just to grab a Sil and run.

If you're playing for score you don't want to scum 950' because each turn decreases your score. Of course you need to kill Morgoth, so maybe you want to scum a little.

[WaveMotion]

also flavour.

Flavour is something that the light and food clocks have and the mindepth clock lacks, in my opinion. To my knowledge there's nothing stated in-game that explains why you can't climb above a certain level after some amount of time, though I've seen explanations like "Morgoth's will draws you closer to him" in the forums and maybe in the manual. I think some kind of message when mindepth reaches or exceeds your current depth might help the mechanic seem less arbitrary and out of place.