Sil 1.2

[wobbly]

Another thing to consider is how you cross a dark room. If you hug the wall your at around +5 stealth, will generally find an exit pt quicker and usually be further from any enemies. So skirt the outside, find the exit, close the door behind you at the end is how I handle them.

Edit: Just checked the manual, your at +3 with 3 adjacent wall tiles (+1/wall) compared to in the open, +5 would be a corner square.

[huiren]

I'm another new(ish) player who finds the game too difficult. In spite of the fact that I suck at it, I love the game. The flavor is perfect and I've never seen a game with more transparent, tightly designed and elegant mechanics. But I would like to vent for a moment about something that really drives me crazy. It's the sheer number of enemies on the first few floors and that fighting even one group of them can take forever because you'll hurt them and then they'll all run away. Sometimes 3-4 times before you finally finish them off. I always try to shut wolves in a room after they run away and to chase orcs off the level, but very often, as soon as I put one group of enemies to rout, another shows up, and by the time they're gone, the first enemies have come back, then a third new group of enemies joins the party and I have to spend forever and a day doing the same things over and over again. I probably die to orcs more often because I make stupid mistakes out of frustration than because I legitimately don't know how to handle them.

I also have some questions to go along with my venting. The first one is about smithing. I tried to play a singer/smith who made a crown of command at the first forge and the character felt quite powerful, at least until around 750 ft or so, but was very frustrating to play. Making such a large investment in smithing and the various smithing abilities meant that I couldn't afford any of the cool abilities in the other skills. I wanted to play a polearm character with a heavy emphasis on song who would forge a sharp spear and a robe of speed. But I died on 750' (to my own stupid mistakes; I was overwhelmed by cats and trolls and ran out of voice when I could have easily run away) before I even started making the artifacts I needed to boost my smithing skill to the point that I could make the artifacts I actually wanted for my character. All smithing did for me past making a crown of command at the first forge was barely make up for the weaknesses of my character because he invested in smithing in the first place. And then he needed two more forges with at least 3 uses to make gloves with a smithing boost and weaponsmithing and then a hammer with a smithing boost and masterpiece. By that point I figure I would have already basically finished the game and I could only then start to play the character I wanted to play.

So I wonder if I could play a normal character, then pick up smithing towards the end and make a bunch of cool gear if I had found enough stat potions and herbs of restoration. My last character, even if he had survived to 950 to scum for forges, still might have had an issue with this, he had only one potion of constitution and no other way to restore drained stats. But it seems to me that because you need to forge so much stuff just to boost your smithing up in the first place, each forge is precious and if you don't start assembling your kit as soon as possible, you won't be able to make anything that pays off a heavy investment. Am I right about this, or do more forges appear very deep in the dungeon?

For another question, how does Song of Slaying work? I know the bonus increases proportionally to my song skill and that a high bonus decays very quickly. But there seems to be a floor of +2 past which the bonus decays very slowly, so that if I sing slaying in most fights, I always start at around +2. Will that minimum increase as I get more song skill or is the rate of decay fixed and only the rate of increase grows? I'm not sure what the right way to use the song is. At least, early on, I can't invest too much in song in place of actual fighting skill because I need to be able to kill things quickly to begin with in order to start racking up the slaying bonus. Not to mention that I'm mostly too scared to sing it because it makes a whole bunch of awful stuff wake up and kill me. From reading the forums here and watching Debo's videos, it seems the primary use for it is to take it right at the end of the game and use it in the throne room. But is it possible to get good use out of it beforehand?

[taptap]

It's the sheer number of enemies on the first few floors and that fighting even one group of them can take forever because you'll hurt them and then they'll all run away. Sometimes 3-4 times before you finally finish them off.

I try to fight close to stairs (stair in the back of my opponents), when they flee, they will leave the floor instead of running all over the place. (At the same time I keep a longbow or some spears at hand.) If you don't have to fight them two or three times it is much easier to manage. You can easily integrate fear even further into your strategy against orcs, it is very easy to push orcs off the floor with a little Elbereth or a horn of terror, weapons of Gondolin do wonders as well (both to kill them and put them to flight).

[debo]

It's the sheer number of enemies on the first few floors and that fighting even one group of them can take forever because you'll hurt them and then they'll all run away. Sometimes 3-4 times before you finally finish them off.

Just for sake of comparison, you might want to try a character that takes opportunist early. Alternately, put just a few points into archery and shoot at them when they flee. (You get one free archery ability as any elf, and precision is very cheap.)

I also have some questions to go along with my venting. The first one is about smithing. I tried to play a singer/smith who made a crown of command at the first forge and the character felt quite powerful, at least until around 750 ft or so, but was very frustrating to play. Making such a large investment in smithing and the various smithing abilities meant that I couldn't afford any of the cool abilities in the other skills. I wanted to play a polearm character with a heavy emphasis on song who would forge a sharp spear and a robe of speed.

Playing a smith to create a very specific build was always an iffy proposition, and it's harder now than it was in earlier versions. You sort of have to look at a build like this as if you're playing a lottery (even moreso than the normal game.)

I personally won't really play smiths anymore -- it really slows the game down, and the risk/reward is certainly not worth it after you've successfully done it a few times. I do think it's very fun the first time you pull it off, though.

I might look at more modest goals for your first smith; something like "I'm going to make a really cool [X], and then be happy", rather than "I'm going to kit out my character like he is Feanor himself." Forge distribution is flattened now, so scumming 950' isn't going to work the way you want.

Seriously though -- if you're having a hard time with the difficulty in general, I wouldn't bother trying a pure smith yet. I think it's probably the most finnicky "canonical" build that you can try.

But I died on 750' (to my own stupid mistakes; I was overwhelmed by cats and trolls and ran out of voice when I could have easily run away) before I even started making the artifacts I needed to boost my smithing skill to the point that I could make the artifacts I actually wanted for my character [...] By that point I figure I would have already basically finished the game and I could only then start to play the character I wanted to play.

This has been my experience also. 600'-800' is very teenage-awkward for the pure smiths I've tried. It's tricky to risk diving, also, since you will probably miss a forge or three. There isn't much game-time to Sil, so I don't think there's much wrong with not getting your ultimate setup until right before the throne room?

But it seems to me that because you need to forge so much stuff just to boost your smithing up in the first place, each forge is precious and if you don't start assembling your kit as soon as possible, you won't be able to make anything that pays off a heavy investment. Am I right about this, or do more forges appear very deep in the dungeon?

One approach you might want to try is making a high-grace Feanor, getting enough smithing to do your early stuff, and then maybe boosting Song a lot and getting Aule. You can use Song of Elbereth or other things to help your survivability, whereas smithing is just dead weight until you can use it.

For another question, how does Song of Slaying work? I know the bonus increases proportionally to my song skill and that a high bonus decays very quickly.

The biggest Slaying effect from boosting Song is that the decay slows.

Not to mention that I'm mostly too scared to sing it because it makes a whole bunch of awful stuff wake up and kill me. From reading the forums here and watching Debo's videos, it seems the primary use for it is to take it right at the end of the game and use it in the throne room. But is it possible to get good use out of it beforehand?

Yes, waking up everything is a real concern. I find Song of Slaying works really well at the exact moment you get Dodging and Flanking, provided there are still enough dudes around to make it worth it. This makes it very appealing to wade out into a crowd of dudes. You don't need a ton of song to make it worthwhile; any melee bonus at all is very noticeable in early fights, where most of your opponents have 3-5 evasion.

[huiren]

One approach you might want to try is making a high-grace Feanor, getting enough smithing to do your early stuff, and then maybe boosting Song a lot and getting Aule. You can use Song of Elbereth or other things to help your survivability, whereas smithing is just dead weight until you can use it.

Thanks for the advice!

That's basically what I did, except with Finarfin. I did 1346 Finarfin with armorsmith and enchantment, then made a crown of command at the first forge. With good protection to mitigate the hits that got through mastery, it was actually quite strong early. I felt I could ignore evasion entirely and focus on melee and song until around 350-400, at which point a corslet of protection and miminal evasion were definitely not cutting it. I didn't touch smithing until my third forge, where I took jeweller to make rings of accuracy. When I got to 750', I was sitting on 10k experience because I didn't know what to spend it on and wasn't sure if going for artifice right then would kill me. Of course I took it, and maybe it did kill me, but I was overconfident after wading through hordes of much nastier enemies on 700' than the things that actually killed me at 750'

For some reason, I'm obsessed with low strength finarfin starts with the idea that I'll use a 1.5 lb spear and rapid attack with focused attack and concentration for high criticals. But I'm finding that stat distribution extremely painful unless I go the smithing route for a crown of command. Elbereth works too, but positioning myself just right to make the enemies go down the stairs instead of back into the level can be really annoying. I actually did better with 0535 Feanor. That character took rapid attack as soon as he reasonably could, which was much too soon, but it was great against low defense enemies. He was popping orcs like balloons and instantly killing distended spiders even without the perception abilities, but he had major trouble against enemies with real defenses. Also, the inventory weight limit at 0 strength makes me want to cry.

Anyway, do you have any tips for low strength characters? I've tried a ton of different starts, but they all either have low damage output, low defense or both.

[taptap]

Anyway, do you have any tips for low strength characters? I've tried a ton of different starts, but they all either have low damage output, low defense or both.

Make a glaive at the first forge and only change to a light weapon / spear when you have the skill and abilities to get criticals. Don't run into spider webs. My best attempt with 0 strength melee: http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=14927 (sadly, you can not make 0.8 lb shortswords anymore).

[debo]

When I got to 750', I was sitting on 10k experience because I didn't know what to spend it on and wasn't sure if going for artifice right then would kill me.

This is basically the Essence of Smithing. It sounds like your strategy was sound; you just need to remember that literally everything can kill you

I didn't realize that Crowns of Command gave Song of Mastery -- I thought it was Majesty. If you have Song of Mastery working well for you, you can do almost anything with impunity. Things will definitely get harder at 900'+ until your gear kicks in, though, as I believe most of the dudes down there are strong-willed. (Rs, dragons, vampires, maybe even Greater Cs -- I'm not sure.)

[huiren]

Make a glaive at the first forge and only change to a light weapon / spear when you have the skill and abilities to get criticals. Don't run into spider webs. My best attempt with 0 strength melee: http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=14927 (sadly, you can not make 0.8 lb shortswords anymore).

Yeah, on the ones who have tried to avoid smithing beyond what's necessary to make a super light spear I started with a glaive. I think I must have seen you recommend that on this forum before. It definitely makes the early game much more doable.

I saw you made a sharp short sword with danger fairly early on that character. How bad is danger? And do multiple sources of danger stack? I wonder if I could make my gear much sooner if I settled on just making one or two artifacts with danger on them rather than building myself up to a super-high level of smithing. Of course, then the issue would be that I couldn't cheat myself out of taking weaponsmith and masterpiece.

I have another question about Song of Slaying. How does it interact with Woven Themes? If I sing Slaying, then switch to another song and add Slaying as a minor theme, will my slaying bonus suddenly drop or just start to decay more quickly / grow more slowly?

[debo]

Yeah, on the ones who have tried to avoid smithing beyond what's necessary to make a super light spear I started with a glaive. I think I must have seen you recommend that on this forum before. It definitely makes the early game much more doable.

I saw you made a sharp short sword with danger fairly early on that character. How bad is danger? And do multiple sources of danger stack? I wonder if I could make my gear much sooner if I settled on just making one or two artifacts with danger on them rather than building myself up to a super-high level of smithing. Of course, then the issue would be that I couldn't cheat myself out of taking weaponsmith and masterpiece.

I have another question about Song of Slaying. How does it interact with Woven Themes? If I sing Slaying, then switch to another song and add Slaying as a minor theme, will my slaying bonus suddenly drop or just start to decay more quickly / grow more slowly?

I think your minor theme always works as if it being sung at (song - 5) -- so, your slaying bonus would start to decay more quickly, but it shouldn't plummet the turn right after you switch themes.

[taptap]

I think your minor theme always works as if it being sung at (song - 5) -- so, your slaying bonus would start to decay more quickly, but it shouldn't plummet the turn right after you switch themes.

This has changed, it is now song / 2.

I saw you made a sharp short sword with danger fairly early on that character. How bad is danger?

Very bad, I just found the one forge of forges in that game and could not resist. (There are +1 dexterity/grace swords w/ danger in the game and many ppl tend to leave them behind - that's how bad danger is.) And afaik it stacks.

[Scatha]

Slaying has an internal counter which accumulates linearly with kills and decays exponentially. This is entirely independent of your Song (though it only accumulates when singing and I think decays faster if you're not singing).

This counter is then multiplied by your Song and we take the ceiling to give your attack bonus. So switching it to the minor theme will immediately halve the bonus.

I think it's calibrated so that if you kill one enemy each turn for a while, the bonus will stabilise at your Song. If you kill one every 4 turns it will stabilise at Song/2, one every 9 turns will stabilise at Song/3 and so on. But there may have been a balance tweak since that was true.

[wobbly]

I saw you made a sharp short sword with danger fairly early on that character. How bad is danger? And do multiple sources of danger stack?

My understanding of danger is each level of danger is an extra 50' for enemy generation, so if you're diving you can just dive 50' less and if you don't like to dive you'll probably hate it. I've taken it a few times and usually regret it. You're probably coming out behind (as you could just play 50' deeper and find better gear). Also walking in to the throne room with danger seems to generate multiple nasty uniques.

I make an exception for +1 grace objects on smiths and the crown with loremaster (as you can dump it after identifying a lot of gear)

[wobbly]

Is there a way to step on something you've thrown with out picking it up. I just threw a lesser jewel next to shadow mold, for the extra light and of course as soon as I moved on to it I of course picked it back up. I've had a related issue where picking up ammo made me burdened and I lost a good character to it.

[half]

Danger means enemies are generated as if it were one dungeon level deeper. In practice, if you choose which level to hang out on based on the difficulty of the monsters, this means that treasure is effectively generated one level shallower. I agree that this makes Danger a really big draw back.

[wobbly]

Does regeneration stack? I'm contemplating seeing how much regen I can get on a fingolfin. Start with 6 con & mind over body and build a regen amulet. Vampiric weapons are common enough that I can probably find 1. Aim for jeweller artifact & regen/sust on both rings and the amulet. So triple regen + vampiric weapon.