Sil 1.2

[BlueFish]

I've posted a couple times about it here before in the hopes of generating some discussion or other people trying it out. Belegost dwarf with 4 str, 0 dex, 4 con, 3 grace. No skill points spent till the first forge, where I spend 8 smithing and take weaponsmith, armoursmith, and artistry. Then make a 3d5 battle axe, a [-2, 2d4] corslet, and a -1 kite shield with 1d7 protection. No real set direction from there, though I do eventually continue to pursue smithing, through jeweler then artifice.

Pardon, this is actually Belegost 4 1 4 3. Brain fart.

[BlueFish]

Interesting. How are other people finding them?

(Regarding Cats with Exchange Places.)

I hope people can just try play testing it with melee based characters.

I just lost yet another game to cats, in a very fun game where I was doing well against all other monsters through the game till that point at 650'. (Yes still on that Belegost build.)

Not sure how any melee character manages to get through the game without noticing the effect. 25% chance each attack for a monster who gets 2 attacks per turn of melee happens all the time. My character who just died to it survived 10 Exchange Places attacks before the one that killed him. The ability wouldn't be nearly as bad on a monster that wasn't already a pack monster. But if you accidentally step into a pack and they vortex you, it's game over if you don't have quickness. I died with 4 Healing potions in my pack. I randomly had found few Quickness pots in the game so that wasn't an option. No horn would have been an option since it would only affect one cat at a time. (I think it's clear that horns should be area of effect, like staves, instead of beam. Horns other than blasting are near useless, relative to inventory cost, as it is.) Song of Elbereth takes too long without huge song skill. I guess staff of majesty would have been my best bet. Cats may make that staff a prereq these days for melee builds.

The ability is just too much on cats IMO. Maybe make it resistable via Will?

[locus]

I've run a few melee characters into 1.2 cats and they haven't been as apocalyptic as you're suggesting. I've never felt like a pack of cats, on its own, spelled unavoidable death. They're hard to run from, but they're really not that powerful if you stand and fight, even with the bonuses to hit from surrounding you. (And to get those bonuses they have to give you free hits with exchange places.) I understand where the person who was trying to give you tips on fighting cats was coming from, because they just really should not be that scary if you know what you're doing.

[BlueFish]

I've run a few melee characters into 1.2 cats and they haven't been as apocalyptic as you're suggesting. I've never felt like a pack of cats, on its own, spelled unavoidable death. They're hard to run from, but they're really not that powerful if you stand and fight, even with the bonuses to hit from surrounding you. (And to get those bonuses they have to give you free hits with exchange places.) I understand where the person who was trying to give you tips on fighting cats was coming from, because they just really should not be that scary if you know what you're doing.

I'm sure I don't know what I'm doing locus. And I'm sure you do. Which build are you talking about? Let's discuss it. I'm talking about a high protection, low evasion melee build.

And I just said I survived 10 packs before dying to one. In combination, of course, with other monsters. It was a pack I happened to stumble into without warning. I was out of quickness pots and Healing wasn't fast enough. It's the law of averages. Pack monsters are everywhere in Sil. It's why brown wolves are so evidently more abundant at 50 than grey molds. Because the RNG gives you 3 or 4 wolves for every mold it gives you.

Cats, in their way, were already one of the most dangerous monsters in the game for melee characters, as I've said before. I don't think that would have been a controversial statement back in 1.1. Exchange Places ramps that up substantially. I don't consider either of those two points reasonably debatable. Whatever game balance cats served in 1.1 was substantially changed, for certain reasonably general builds (high prot, low evasion melee).

[taptap]

Pardon, this is actually Belegost 4 1 4 3.

This was what was confusing me, I knew I have played 4143 on will dwarves before.

If you play a smith and buff grace anyway (maybe you already have 6 song skill for aule at that point, I don't know) Elbereth should work just fine - if you start singing before things go downhill. Personally for this kind of char I am now booked for channeling which may reduce voice cost of horns in future releases and horns / terror and stunning / and staffs, just for variety in gameplay and it works so much better in an emergency.

I do believe that horns should have an area effect somewhat like breath.

[Scatha]

Do you take Critical Resistance on these characters? I'm a bit surprised by your comments, because I think of high protection low evasion melee as one of the builds which should be quite strong against cats. They are not very hard to kill for melee specialists; I worry that they cause more problems for characters weak in melee who get trapped.

I do believe that horns should have an area effect somewhat like breath.

I've been wondering about this too. It's probably more natural since we already have the breath template in the game (and don't use beams elsewhere). But it keeps horns reasonably distinct from staves.

[locus]

I'm sure I don't know what I'm doing locus. And I'm sure you do. Which build are you talking about? Let's discuss it. I'm talking about a high protection, low evasion melee build.

And I just said I survived 10 packs before dying to one. In combination, of course, with other monsters. It was a pack I happened to stumble into without warning. I was out of quickness pots and Healing wasn't fast enough. It's the law of averages. Pack monsters are everywhere in Sil. It's why brown wolves are so evidently more abundant at 50 than grey molds. Because the RNG gives you 3 or 4 wolves for every mold it gives you.

Cats, in their way, were already one of the most dangerous monsters in the game for melee characters, as I've said before. I don't think that would have been a controversial statement back in 1.1. Exchange Places ramps that up substantially. I don't consider either of those two points reasonably debatable. Whatever game balance cats served in 1.1 was substantially changed, for certain reasonably general builds (high prot, low evasion melee).

I guess I would say it's not as clear to me that you know what you're doing as you seem to think it should be. In part, this is because you seem to be having a lot of trouble with an enemy I do not find *especially* troublesome.

I have never considered cats one of the most dangerous monsters in the game for melee characters, and would certainly consider that a controversial statement in 1.1. Do you have anyone backing you up here, or are you imagining a consensus that does not exist?

One example of a monster that is more frightening than the cats and serves a similar role is the Kemnrauko. Like the cats, he has the tendency to get you surrounded rather than letting you choose your battle, but unlike the cats, he is essentially invulnerable to a melee character's secondary archery, and even in melee he is much harder to kill.

I feel like perhaps every Rauko is more frightening than the cats, on reflection. Ringraukaur weren't in 1.1, but they got a big buff and keep almost killing me and making me run through my healing potions because I expect to waltz through them. Sulraukar are highly dependent on if you've found a sustainable source of True Sight or failing that a bunch of potions, but they can totally destroy you if you can't see them. The fire guys whose name escapes me are usually quite easy to defeat, but they have so much variance to them that the "law of averages" will get you if you fight too many over the course of the game. Gwaithraukar can kill anyone with no hope if they catch you in a bad situation, and they eat up an inventory slot for a floorlamp even if they don't. Hithraukar are rare enough that I don't have a strong opinion about them but I bet they're scary.

[debo]

Bluefish, you might want to try not freaking out whenever someone suggests that you might play a bit differently and/or alter your build, I don't think it's helping your case much.

The reason why you're getting pushback is that several of us have played several high-protection, low-evasion characters through exactly the same part of the game as you have, and didn't find this to be an obvious problem. It's a natural thing to say "well, here's what I tried, and it worked" in that scenario.

For other reasonable suggestions ("maybe charge on orc warriors is OP") there has been some balanced discussion of "yes maybe, but here's how you can deal with it". So far we've all managed to avoid getting defensive about how we play when someone suggests that we could do certain things better.

No one is calling you a bad player. Everyone has parts of their play that they can tighten up a bit. I used to bitch and complain about shadow spiders, and I really did believe they were OP, but at the same time there were obviously many other players who weren't superstars at the game who were just fine with them, so I knew there were parts of my strategy that i could change.

In response to your actual concern -- one thing that I think _may_ be a problem is that this change to cats has made flanking even more of an attractor to me. It's starting to become what Charge was in 1.0.x, imo -- basically it's really hard to argue that any melee character shouldn't take it. I think I would be having a much worse problem with cats and exchange-places if I didn't take flanking, and that does potentially reduce options a bit.

Ż\_(ツ)_/Ż

[taptap]

One example of a monster that is more frightening than the cats and serves a similar role is the Kemnrauko. Like the cats, he has the tendency to get you surrounded rather than letting you choose your battle, but unlike the cats, he is essentially invulnerable to a melee character's secondary archery, and even in melee he is much harder to kill.

So basically, cats are less scary to melee chars because you can shoot them?

I obviously can't speak for bluefish, but well there are people who don't give dwarves a bow, simply because they have trouble imagining a 4' dwarf (that is what bluefishs plays) drawing a 6'5'' longbow. Cats have quite a bit evasion so throwing weapons as the ranged alternative do not work as well as on other opponents. A bit more scary already.

Cats are stealthy, perceptive, quick and occur in groups. And have exchange places. I do like them, but certainly consider them dangerous as well. (Cats are about the number one death cause for my stealthy chars, because you can't always hear them before they jump you in a corridor and they can sleep silently, wake up and block your escape all in one turn. My melee chars look very different from bluefish's so I can't comment on that. And apparently they have some other tricks ready, one did beam me out of Angband once )

The point about exchange places is obviously less important for strong melee chars fighting in the open, either via flanking or other means - it probably stops your sprint and this is about it. Or for archers that aren't in the process of running away - hard to see any difference if they are dead before they reach you. Fighters getting by with controlled retreat or similar techniques where you need a way to retreat in a corridor will have more problems. Obviously one should find an efficient way to play to get by, but if it really boils down to only one clearly best option ("lack of flanking") it would be bad and clearly not what Sil intends to be (offer meaningful, viable choices not a single best practice)

Thank God, there is a simple solution to most other problems: More lamps.

P.S. The one thing I noticed in recent chars is the still heavy reliance on sharpness, now preferred directly on the weapon. I want to see more blunt force!

[Derakon]

P.S. The one thing I noticed in recent chars is the still heavy reliance on sharpness, now preferred directly on the weapon. I want to see more blunt force!

Random idea: maybe with enough blunt trauma (or appropriate shattering magic), you could shatter the Crown and create a pile of "Crown Fragments"? These would be large chunks of iron with Sils embedded in them. Heavier than carrying a Sil alone, but a lot lighter than trying to lug the entire Crown out.

[debo]

Random idea: maybe with enough blunt trauma (or appropriate shattering magic), you could shatter the Crown and create a pile of "Crown Fragments"? These would be large chunks of iron with Sils embedded in them. Heavier than carrying a Sil alone, but a lot lighter than trying to lug the entire Crown out.

I really think the crown's protection just needs to be a bit less ridiculous. The perceived "real win" in sil is kill V and get all 3 sils, so the fact that this is "optional" isn't really helping people much

clouded had an idea which I like a lot, which is that killing V does nothing for your score. It would completely hose the current ladder scoring system, but hey.

[BlueFish]

I guess I would say it's not as clear to me that you know what you're doing as you seem to think it should be. In part, this is because you seem to be having a lot of trouble with an enemy I do not find *especially* troublesome.

I have never considered cats one of the most dangerous monsters in the game for melee characters, and would certainly consider that a controversial statement in 1.1. Do you have anyone backing you up here, or are you imagining a consensus that does not exist?

What do you consider their purpose then from a game design perspective? If not a danger for low evasion melee characters then what? Abstract cats for me.

Here's my try: High damage dice, low damage sides, high melee, which means they are the counter to low evasion high prot characters. Critical hits scale upwards in damage faster than prot can protect one from that damage if one has low evasion.

Now you go.

One example of a monster that is more frightening than the cats and serves a similar role is the Kemnrauko. Like the cats, he has the tendency to get you surrounded rather than letting you choose your battle, but unlike the cats, he is essentially invulnerable to a melee character's secondary archery, and even in melee he is much harder to kill.

Kemenrauko can move through walls. That is what defines them. Yes it gets you surrounded. They can be run away from with sprinting. They weren't changed in 1.2 (as far as I know), and they have little to do with the current discussion. They're difficult but fair IMO, always have been.

Keep in mind that purple molds, which I've complained about before, and which I've fixed in my personal version, single handedly keep people from playing Sil. But complaints about them here are ridiculed. And after the ridicule is mostly silence.

I feel like perhaps every Rauko is more frightening than the cats, on reflection. Ringraukaur weren't in 1.1, but they got a big buff and keep almost killing me and making me run through my healing potions because I expect to waltz through them. Sulraukar are highly dependent on if you've found a sustainable source of True Sight or failing that a bunch of potions, but they can totally destroy you if you can't see them. The fire guys whose name escapes me are usually quite easy to defeat, but they have so much variance to them that the "law of averages" will get you if you fight too many over the course of the game. Gwaithraukar can kill anyone with no hope if they catch you in a bad situation, and they eat up an inventory slot for a floorlamp even if they don't. Hithraukar are rare enough that I don't have a strong opinion about them but I bet they're scary.

Notably absent from this is how you deal with being vortexed by cats as a melee guy.

It doesn't fly to say that being surrounded by them isn't a big deal. If it's not, they are failing at their sole purpose in the game. They hit, hard and often, in melee. There's nothing else there.

[BlueFish]

So basically, cats are less scary to melee chars because you can shoot them?

I obviously can't speak for bluefish, but well there are people who don't give dwarves a bow, simply because they have trouble imagining a 4' dwarf (that is what bluefishs plays) drawing a 6'5'' longbow. Cats have quite a bit evasion so throwing weapons as the ranged alternative do not work as well as on other opponents. A bit more scary already.

Archery is a very important component to most of my characters. The 4 strength thing comes in handy after you make a +1 long bow that weighs 4 pounds. I certainly shoot cats down if possible, and they're easy then. It is not possible at times, and those times can feel very unfair.

Exchange Places is a huge deal. It moves your character. Positioning relative to monsters is obviously one of the biggest things in Roguelike tactics. Always has been.

[BlueFish]

Do you take Critical Resistance on these characters?

9 will at that point in the game isn't real viable for me, but I know that would be the natural counter to cats. Still, vortexing would be a huge deal. The change to cats in 1.2 made them more well-balanced only if they were way too easy in 1.1. I never found them negligible in 1.1.

People claiming Exchange Places is barely noticeable are either lying or playing specific builds. It's a big thing.

[locus]

9 will at that point in the game isn't real viable for me, but I know that would be the natural counter to cats.

Well, this seems like the problem. Yeah, I do not in fact play builds that totally tank evasion without taking Critical Resistance, because that leaves you kind of vulnerable to cats. Similarly, I try to find enough light not to get murdered by darkness-producing enemies, some way to deal damage to high-protection enemies, some way to deal with entrancement/confusion/fear/etc.

Maybe the problem here is there aren't enough high accuracy critfisher enemies, so that BlueFish thinks that he shouldn't have to build his character to deal with high accuracy critfisher threats.