ID: the game (tips and tricks)

[taptap]

It almost pays for its cost in XP at the end of the game.

''at the end of the game"!

While lore-master probably does not decrease or may even increase peak strength for suitable builds, you usually lose the experience between 500-600ft (or even earlier) and at that point the investment into lore-master is quite large or even crippling for perception heavy builds (if you have e.g. focus / concentration / keen senses / listen) - you can't wait much longer otherwise you would need to use-identify consumables anyway,.

[half]

When looking at other games, Brogue handles the ID game better than any other roguelike I've encountered (with the possible exception of ToME 4, which just omits it altogether) - basically all consumables are automatically ID'd when used in an appropriate fashion (quaffing potions, aiming staves and wands at monsters etc).

You state this as if it were a fact, but obviously this is just one opinion and an opinion that we don't share. It would be very easy to move to the Brogue or TOME 4 style, and would have required less effort in the past, but I think that would make the game worse. I think Sil has done well to cater to both opinion -- certainly better than Brogue or TOME 4, which only cater to your preferred approach (less ID). As others have pointed out, you need the cost of two abilities to prevent Loremaster being extremely profitable. It is roughly even as is, unless you want a lot of other perception abilities.

Regarding metagaming, I think Sil combat and ID are actually pretty realistic in the tradeoffs they encourage. We put in a lot of effort on this.

[Infinitum]

Optimal ID game by its nature is rather opaque is all I'm saying. Example given, "only" quaffing unknown potions in safe environs when slightly wounded (healing), being afflicted by a status effect (Slow Poison, Clarity) and preferrably only once inventory constraints forces you to to improve chances of having access to stat restoration isn't something that's readily apparent only from playing the game. And potions are comparatively simple to use-id compared to the more ambigous staffs and potentially lethal equipment (most notably cursed stat jewelry and vampiric weapons).

By the by, another (small) issue is unspoiled players not noticing that the appearance of Orcish Liqour and Mirurvor aren't randomized and potentially wasting valuable healing resources. Auto-ID on pickup (maybe with a smell-related flavourtext) would solve this.

[half]

Optimal ID game by its nature is rather opaque is all I'm saying. Example given, "only" quaffing unknown potions in safe environs when slightly wounded (healing), being afflicted by a status effect (Slow Poison, Clarity) and preferrably only once inventory constraints forces you to to improve chances of having access to stat restoration isn't something that's readily apparent only from playing the game. And potions are comparatively simple to use-id compared to the more ambigous staffs and potentially lethal equipment (most notably cursed stat jewelry and vampiric weapons).

By the by, another (small) issue is unspoiled players not noticing that the appearance of Orcish Liqour and Mirurvor aren't randomized and potentially wasting valuable healing resources. Auto-ID on pickup (maybe with a smell-related flavourtext) would solve this.

I think these are examples of where it is enjoyable for beginning players to gain knowledge and skill. Learning that Orcish Liquor has the same appearance each game is one of the first things on the learning curve. You notice that, which makes you a slightly better player. It is part of my approach to game design to have ways to improve your play which are spread across the spectrum: some things you can get quickly, some you learn on your 100th game, and most of which reward intelligence, creativity, systematic attempts to improve etc. Working out that you can be more efficient with IDing is a case of this, and you get a little minigame that interacts with the larger game (research optimally or minimise current risk?) and also teaches the scientific method (create a hypothesis for what this staff does, design a critical experiment, test).

As a broader note, I think quite a few games are balanced so that easy quick wins are removed, or are spoiled to the players in the manual. But this actually takes away from some of the enjoyable learning that can otherwise happen in the first few levels or first few games.

[Starhawk]

And, I forgot to add: Loremaster also makes you take less risks.

Suppose you see an unID'ed ring in a red dragon lair. Your first instinct is to take a risk and go get it. If you knew from the start that it's a RoCON-1, you wouldn't bother.

("Legolas, what do your Elven eyes see?" "Hmm, that dragon 100 metres away is wearing a RoCON-1 ring.")

You also get XP for items and artifacts that you can identify by sight, but are in too dangerous of a situation for you to actually get your greedy little handses on them.

[locus]

I think these are examples of where it is enjoyable for beginning players to gain knowledge and skill. Learning that Orcish Liquor has the same appearance each game is one of the first things on the learning curve. You notice that, which makes you a slightly better player. It is part of my approach to game design to have ways to improve your play which are spread across the spectrum: some things you can get quickly, some you learn on your 100th game, and most of which reward intelligence, creativity, systematic attempts to improve etc. Working out that you can be more efficient with IDing is a case of this, and you get a little minigame that interacts with the larger game (research optimally or minimise current risk?) and also teaches the scientific method (create a hypothesis for what this staff does, design a critical experiment, test).

As a broader note, I think quite a few games are balanced so that easy quick wins are removed, or are spoiled to the players in the manual. But this actually takes away from some of the enjoyable learning that can otherwise happen in the first few levels or first few games.

This is a major point of divergence between the Sil philosophy and the Crawl philosophy. I dunno, I see where you're coming from, but I've had some people turned off by the murky brown potion thing. Rather than thinking "aha now I know something I can use" they think "why didn't the game just tell me!". Possibly this is just a sign of the infantilized decadence of the modern gamer, though. I could believe that your strategy works better for people whose hearts still burn with the spirit of True Gaming.

[Nick]

This is a major point of divergence between the Sil philosophy and the Crawl philosophy. I dunno, I see where you're coming from, but I've had some people turned off by the murky brown potion thing. Rather than thinking "aha now I know something I can use" they think "why didn't the game just tell me!".

I see this as increasing immersion - while the player knows after the first time what Orcish Liquor is, each character is new to the dungeon, and has to learn what the murky brown potion is.

[locus]

I see this as increasing immersion - while the player knows after the first time what Orcish Liquor is, each character is new to the dungeon, and has to learn what the murky brown potion is.

If the player knows what Orcish Liquor is then for all intents and purposes the character does. After a little while playing the game you will tend to use-id murky browns when you need an hp boost or to cancel fear.

[BlueFish]

I see this as increasing immersion - while the player knows after the first time what Orcish Liquor is, each character is new to the dungeon, and has to learn what the murky brown potion is.

I definitely like that murky brown and clear potions are fixed, but I don't find that it increases immersion. I just like the little extra ID advantage. So I like it mostly because I don't necessarily like the ID meta-game.

[wobbly]

I disagree with the whole logic of loremaster gives free xp argument I keep seeing. If I've taken say: keen senses & listen then loremaster costs me an additional 3500xp. I actually have to identify an extra 35 items for it to pay for itself. I don't think there is that no. of objects I couldn't of identified by use in the game. The logic only makes sense if you plan on taking no other perception skills.

[BlueFish]

I disagree with the whole logic of loremaster gives free xp argument I keep seeing. If I've taken say: keen senses & listen then loremaster costs me an additional 3500xp. I actually have to identify an extra 35 items for it to pay for itself. I don't think there is that no. of objects I couldn't of identified by use in the game. The logic only makes sense if you plan on taking no other perception skills.

Yes this is a very important point to keep in mind. Loremaster does give some free experience. But that is not as relevant as many claim, for several reasons. Taptap makes a great point that the timing is very important - xp early is way more important than xp late. Loremaster experience occurs throughout the game and certainly not always early. It never pays for itself at the time you take it.

But maybe most important is what you note. That the "pays for itself" idea is predicated on not taking any other perception skills. I.e. predicated on depriving the game of lots of skills the designers put a lot of thought into. They could be a lot of fun, too.

I play smiths and I always craft a crown with Loremaster on it. So this is less of an issue for me than some. But I believe I would notice more, and care more, if I couldn't just spend a flat 500 xp and 3 forge uses to get Loremaster.

[wobbly]

& on lorekeeper which many have mentioned is current useless by itself. "Lets you tell the difference between mere special objects and artifacts....". Are there many artifacts you'd have trouble picking off unusual base stats anyway? I think Marvin(?) suggested somewhere id-ing potions but was unsure if it was to strong. Another idea would be just to divide potions in to poison/positive (or some better nomenclature) & giving lorekeeper that.

Edit: Probably an inelegent mechanic. Other ideas:
Something like angband pseudo-id?
A 1 time perception check to id an item on find/in inventory (mini-loremaster)?
Something else?

[half]

& on lorekeeper which many have mentioned is current useless by itself. "Lets you tell the difference between mere special objects and artifacts....". Are there many artifacts you'd have trouble picking off unusual base stats anyway? I think Marvin(?) suggested somewhere id-ing potions but was unsure if it was to strong. Another idea would be just to divide potions in to poison/positive (or some better nomenclature) & giving lorekeeper that.

There are plans to improve it (make it more of a realistic stopping point) but this is lower priority than the other things I'm working on (which players will find considerably more interesting!).

[taptap]

Are there many artifacts you'd have trouble picking off unusual base stats anyway?

Definitely Angrist. Maybe also Ogbar, Gaurin. (Dramborleg and Hurin can be guessed but are well in the limits for other weapons.) Very important point for lore keeper is to see cursed items. Basically cursed items are what makes use id for items difficult, it is hard to identify staff of sanctity without a cursed item, but sometimes your staffs are something else and you are stuck with the item for a few floors. I.e. I am very wary to use id war hammers, shortswords (unless playing a fencer) or daggers, and only use id weapons that look good enough to use for a while even if cursed. However, if I set out to ID myself, I usually don't want to take lore keeper as well.

The experience: How much experience is in the ID game? (10k?) And how different is the haul between loremasters and others? (1-2k?) I agree with wobbly on the perception abilities, what made me play without loremaster were the other perception abilities, especially with archers I very much wanted keen senses, listen, focus, concentration and maybe more.

[taptap]

I just realized that I tend to use up at least one, often two, recharging staffs for recharging my understanding staff. I try to use-ID items, but want to save consumables. But in fact I just trade charges for potions / herbs, now if I imagine more treasure or revelation charges I am not sure this trade off is so good.