Sil: Proper Starts? (Builds that aren't Artistry)

[mrrstark]

I'm still pretty new to Sil, and trying to soak up info.

I just finished watching Debo's LP series on the Beefcake / Artistry start, and made my own character following that build and got pleasantly far for myself, around 500' or so.

However, Debo commented a few times that 'this build isn't the kind of build you'd want if you wanted an easy time of things'

Well I do want an easy time, I think I have a better handle on the early game than before, so I want to ask:

What are strong newbie friendly builds that should take you to the end of the game?

i.e. not challenge builds, or oddity builds, im looking for solid builds that people usually use to get them all the way through.


I'd like to start learning and understanding solid build options instead of gimmick builds. Artistry is cool for getting to mid-game, but seems like it usually falls apart after that.

Thanks!

[debo]

Actually you could totally use that artistry start but with less ridiculous stats -- 2/4/5/3 or 2/5/4/3 would be examples. That was all I meant by the build being gimmicky, the ability + skills progression is actually pretty normal (although momentum with 2 str will only be a go if you decide to use light weapons or you find a lot of +Str equipment.)

Otherwise, Fingolfin 2/4/5/3 or 3/3/5/3 are quite good starts too, if you just want to be a fighter-type. You can go without any abilities at all for quite a while, buffing melee, evasion, and will. Depending on what equipment you find, taking Power and/or Finesse, maybe Dodging+flanking+crowd fighting, and hardiness+crit resist is a pretty standard way to play.

The extra Con really starts to help as you find more sources / buy Con from will tree when the going really gets tough -- you can pretty easily get 71HP by the mid-late game and that helps a LOT when you're new to the game IMO.

[debo]

Also, "easy time" is a very relative term in Sil, I wouldn't expect to just pick a good starting stat/skills distribution and make it to the end. I would prepare yourself to die a _lot_

[mrrstark]

Thanks, definitely wasn't just referring to the initial stats distribution. Very much referring to the minor-smithing vs. no-smithing or full-smithing options. As in the disadvantage with the artistry start seems to be that you get beginner gear guaranteed, but you aren't really using that investment long-term due to the low grace score making future heavy smithing costly, and so it becomes a concession to the early game rather than a starting point for a long-term build.

One thing I'm still not clear on is what an appropriate split between raw skill upgrades vs. abilities is. I saw some talk about how the increasing intra-tree point costs suggest spreading out, but then saw half mention that a generalist is sub-optimal.

[taptap]

I always lose when I have a too easy time early on - as I get sloppy when I find a cool artefact at 150 ft. There is also no build that solves all problems right out. There usually remain weaknesses, enemies you want to avoid etc. if you build more flexible (and carry swap equipment) you will have more problems with inventory management and may lack a bit of power in certain situations but you are able to survive in others were more one-sided characters get into trouble.

When your character falls apart around 500 ft. it might be a lack of special abilities more than raw power. You typically would want as soon as possible at least 2 light radius (better 3 or 4 or 5), at least 1 fire resistance, keen senses or a source of true sight and a minimum of perception, a source of free action (they are plentiful but being entranced once can kill you with bad luck) and resistance to fear or a way to remove fear (Herb of Rage or Orcish Liquor will do) and a minimum of will. Most of these abilities can be omitted with care, very high perception (true sight) or will (fear resist, free action), still for me lack of these is very often my downfall (shadow spiders / bats -> light, sulrauko when invisibly blocking your escape -> keen senses / true sight, entrancement (horrors, dragons) -> free action, being roasted -> fire resist)

I like 2/5/4/3 Feanor with 5 melee, 5 evasion, dodge, finesse w/ the remaining points in smithing and jeweller or armoursmith (decision can wait until forge). It makes for a fairly flexible start. I like to take flanking and subtlety next and go with a light good quality longsword or even better a 1 lb shortsword. It can turn out more or less smith as you like. You could do the exact same thing without smithing at all, but when I take a Feanor (for the dexterity) I end up taking some smithing as well. It works with other balanced stat distributions as well. Keep a heavier weapon, armour and shield for swaps.

You always can take one of the flexible stat distributions 2/5/4/3, 2/4/4/4 or 2/4/5/3 and go without abilities only with melee and evasion until about 500 and maybe decide on abilities as soon as you find a cool item to build around, though often you don't find an item worth the effort until this depth. In fact this doesn't necessarily plays very different to artistry as long as you find some armour - you just have more points in skills instead of in armour modifiers.

Another build is 0/4/2/5 Doriath with Disguise and Song of Silence at start with already 8 points in song and taking Song of Lorien after you gathered the remaining 200 xp (this only works with House of Doriath). Very much sets you up for a singing descent to the throne room. After Lorien, increase stealth (maybe get vanish), get Keen Senses and Listen. Later you can continue as pacifist or add Song of Mastery (Lorien is one path to it) and shoot the crap out of many units (especially all kinds of cats and trolls). Very fast, very cool, but you will have less xp (so likely no Morgoth killing). The same build is possible with Haleth centered around stealth first or Finarfin with early Listen but working to the same set of stealth / perception / song abilities. Playing a pacifist with lore-master is a good way to see more of Angband and learn about it without being forced to engage with everything.

[taptap]

a concession to the early game rather than a starting point for a long-term build

The most important aspect of late game strength is being alive in the late game. I played dozens of characters that could have been super strong in the throne room theoretically but never survived due to some glaring weakness earlier. It is much better to give away a bit of peak strength for more survivability - early / midgame strength also allows you to recover more loot in that depth and going faster. A single good drop triggered by being strong early can fully compensate for the perceived drop in peak strength as well.

[mrrstark]

All true. Thanks for the responses!

[taptap]

Another good build:

Feanor, balanced stat distribution w/ 2 STR and 4-5 DEX, 3-4 CON, 4 GRA, lots of archery, some stealth and disguise, some evasion and weaponsmith. Make 2 lb (or 2.1 lb) longbow and some arrows at the first forge. Increase stealth (vanish), archery and perception (focus and concentration and listen) as you go, evasion until sprinting only. You could remain with only weaponsmith to make arrows or increase smithing as soon as you feel comfortable to do so to make it an archer smith with more smithing. I used to do this with a shortbow at the 1st forge, but 2 STR and a longbow first works out much better for me against critical resistant or armoured enemies - you still need to be careful where to pick your fights in the start. First abilities from the archer tree would be precision, flaming arrows and crippling shot. When your perception and archery skills grow changing to a 1 lb shortbow might be a good idea even if you don't utilize 1 of your 2 STR points. Resist the temptation to fight in melee with versatility even with a good weapon - the ladder is full of dead archers that engaged in melee, better have a swap bow to tackle different enemies without burning, literally, too many arrows.

When I don't increase smithing after weaponsmith I would avoid lore-master completely because I want all those other perception abilities focus / concentration / keen senses / listen. So, if you still want lore-master without smithing you may want to do this with a Finarfin and 2/4/4/4 or 2/4/3/5.

[BlueFish]

I'm curious whether there is such a thing as an "easy" build even for an experienced player. It seems so common to get surrounded in a corridor by 3 orc warriors on either side at 200 ft, or something like that. There's no build that will allow you to survive that. But I haven't played the "easy" race since I won once with it so I'm not sure.

[taptap]

I'm curious whether there is such a thing as an "easy" build even for an experienced player. It seems so common to get surrounded in a corridor by 3 orc warriors on either side at 200 ft, or something like that. There's no build that will allow you to survive that. But I haven't played the "easy" race since I won once with it so I'm not sure.

Herbs of Rage and moral effects (staff, Elbereth, trumpet, slaying weapons, cruel blow) are your friend.

[BlueFish]

Not at 200 ft they're not.

[HallucinationMushroom]

I guess it depends on what you find to be easy. What Debo does easily, I find very difficult. I can't recall last time I died to 200ft or previous, but I play a warrior type start, so that is pretty dang durable as opposed to a player dabbling with stealth, or whatever.

As for a character build, the only one I have repeated success with is a heavy protection warrior. I've won with all but the humans with this approach, as it's pretty tanky with decent opportunity for wig-splitting. Rush 9 evasion reasonably fast, buy heavy armor mastery, get melee to +14 bonus or so, buy all the necessary survival feats, like keen senses/hardiness/rpois/crit.resistance/etc

As you find good protection armor and items, wear 'em. Think, 10-33 or more protection. You'll be sword and boarding, or axe and shield for most of the game. Start adding more melee points near 650', get bonus to over +20. Start removing some armor penalty items for more melee accuracy at end game, to end fights faster.

[taptap]

Not at 200 ft they're not.

I like to fight with the stairs behind the enemies, so fleeing enemies leave the floor for good and don't harass me later and less enemies turn up behind me. I also started to fight in the mouth (first tile) of corridors (your back to lighted room) after watching clouded play. That way you see approaching enemies and can reposition. For the same reason it is safer to take out archers at suitable room entrances instead of corridor turns, probably also inspired by clouded or debo. And nothing really stops you from having Song of Elbereth at 200 ft.

[half]

I also started to fight in the mouth (first tile) of corridors (your back to lighted room) after watching clouded play.

Interesting. This has occurred to me too. There are two downsides I see. It makes you easier to notice for wandering enemies and it means that you may have to fight more than two enemies at most (which is the upper bound for how bad it gets if you are in the corridor). I think it is probably worth these downsides, but am not sure. Fighting one square from the mouth is an option that makes these a bit less bad, but may mean you don't see the new enemies in time to go into the room when that is the best tactic.

[taptap]

Military archery build (no stealth, no listen) is solid enough to propose as proper build. Wildkhaine pulled this off in record time and without the morale effects - but I suggest it is easier with them especially since crippling shot and longbows got nerfed.

Weaponsmith, versatility, a little evasion at start with a balanced stat distribution (e.g. 2/4/4/4). Forge a 2lb longbow and arrows at the first forge. Take Elbereth and Sprinting early and build up your archery and perception (concentration, optionally keen senses). Get crippling shot, majesty (requires 9 will) and lots of light (affects morale for some and allows you to aim from some tiles away) - add majesty staffs for overkill. Soon most enemies will flee after you get the first hit on them - which is very useful given you stand no chance in melee against say greater werewolves, but are strong enough to clean up the worm masses you wake up given your lack of stealth. Elbereth and Sprinting are crucial for early survival and remain useful throughout. Possible with or without more smithing. Don't waste too much arrows on flaming arrows as you are much more dependent on arrows than hunter (stealth+archery) builds who can go into complete avoidance mode for a while. Keep a swap bow even if you finally change to shortbow - this helps you saving arrows because you don't need flaming arrows on everything that is resisting critical hits. If you have the strength a good 3lb longbow might be better even for the throne room. Song of Sharpness helps in late game to shoot grotesques and larger serpents, as an archer you are always in a good position to kill dragons (with fire resist, free action and clarity) whenever you can get enough distance on them.

(I just don't know how to do the throne room with this.)

P.S. Now, I do. It can work.