Sil: Proper Starts? (Builds that aren't Artistry)

[half]

Indeed. In case this isn't obvious, English is not my native language.

It isn't obvious. Your English is excellent.

[taptap]

Why 1lb? Why shortsword? How do lighter weapon weights help?

Critical hits require beating the opponents evasion roll by 7 + weapon weight -1 for finesse -2 for subtlety when one handed (= no shield / no two-weapon fighting). So a subtle / one handed 1lb shortsword gives you critical hits for every 5 points you beat them, a 2lb sword for every 6 points.

For bows it is the same just you only get -1 for precision and there is no equivalent for subtlety.

Weight matters a lot in Sil. And I particularly love that in Sil a well balanced sword forged in the first forge can be your weapon of choice from start to end - no need to power up through an endless succession of +2 to +5 to +11 to +16 weapons as it seems to happen in other roguelikes (Angband?).

I tend / used to die a lot early, especially with my light weapon, subtlety attempts (that is why I started to value flexibility and more early game strength), flanking is great regardless, you can do it with a bastard sword just as well. The no-stealth archer (Egrent on the ladder), however, went all the way to 950ft. in the first attempt and is still alive and kicking (and has the highest archery skill I ever had).

I learned a lot from watching debo, clouded and wildkhaine play (the only people who published games) - how you use the char you have is probably more important than the specific build. That's so great about Sil: there are many viable ideas, including some not envisioned by the creators.

[mrrstark]

Indeed. In case this isn't obvious, English is not my native language.

Ha no problem, I was just wondering if there was a mechanic I hadn't discovered.

I gave a few of these builds a try over the weekend and .... died horribly many many times ... found out just how useful the artistry start is...

But seriously, I'm grateful for the build ideas, it's given me a bit of insight into how people think when they put together some of the builds, and how to find synergies etc.

One question, in one of the earlier posts:

I like to take flanking and subtlety next and go with a light good quality longsword or even better a 1 lb shortsword.

Why 1lb? Why shortsword? How do lighter weapon weights help?

I think it has something to do with the critical strike mechanics, but I couldn't find the reason.

[taptap]

by "moral" do you mean "morale"? as in abilities that demoralize/intimidate the enemy and make them flee sooner?

Indeed. In case this isn't obvious, English is not my native language.

[mrrstark]

by "moral" do you mean "morale"? as in abilities that demoralize/intimidate the enemy and make them flee sooner?

[taptap]

Military archery build (no stealth, no listen) is solid enough to propose as proper build. Wildkhaine pulled this off in record time and without the morale effects - but I suggest it is easier with them especially since crippling shot and longbows got nerfed.

Weaponsmith, versatility, a little evasion at start with a balanced stat distribution (e.g. 2/4/4/4). Forge a 2lb longbow and arrows at the first forge. Take Elbereth and Sprinting early and build up your archery and perception (concentration, optionally keen senses). Get crippling shot, majesty (requires 9 will) and lots of light (affects morale for some and allows you to aim from some tiles away) - add majesty staffs for overkill. Soon most enemies will flee after you get the first hit on them - which is very useful given you stand no chance in melee against say greater werewolves, but are strong enough to clean up the worm masses you wake up given your lack of stealth. Elbereth and Sprinting are crucial for early survival and remain useful throughout. Possible with or without more smithing. Don't waste too much arrows on flaming arrows as you are much more dependent on arrows than hunter (stealth+archery) builds who can go into complete avoidance mode for a while. Keep a swap bow even if you finally change to shortbow - this helps you saving arrows because you don't need flaming arrows on everything that is resisting critical hits. If you have the strength a good 3lb longbow might be better even for the throne room. Song of Sharpness helps in late game to shoot grotesques and larger serpents, as an archer you are always in a good position to kill dragons (with fire resist, free action and clarity) whenever you can get enough distance on them.

(I just don't know how to do the throne room with this.)

P.S. Now, I do. It can work.

[half]

I also started to fight in the mouth (first tile) of corridors (your back to lighted room) after watching clouded play.

Interesting. This has occurred to me too. There are two downsides I see. It makes you easier to notice for wandering enemies and it means that you may have to fight more than two enemies at most (which is the upper bound for how bad it gets if you are in the corridor). I think it is probably worth these downsides, but am not sure. Fighting one square from the mouth is an option that makes these a bit less bad, but may mean you don't see the new enemies in time to go into the room when that is the best tactic.

[taptap]

Not at 200 ft they're not.

I like to fight with the stairs behind the enemies, so fleeing enemies leave the floor for good and don't harass me later and less enemies turn up behind me. I also started to fight in the mouth (first tile) of corridors (your back to lighted room) after watching clouded play. That way you see approaching enemies and can reposition. For the same reason it is safer to take out archers at suitable room entrances instead of corridor turns, probably also inspired by clouded or debo. And nothing really stops you from having Song of Elbereth at 200 ft.

[HallucinationMushroom]

I guess it depends on what you find to be easy. What Debo does easily, I find very difficult. I can't recall last time I died to 200ft or previous, but I play a warrior type start, so that is pretty dang durable as opposed to a player dabbling with stealth, or whatever.

As for a character build, the only one I have repeated success with is a heavy protection warrior. I've won with all but the humans with this approach, as it's pretty tanky with decent opportunity for wig-splitting. Rush 9 evasion reasonably fast, buy heavy armor mastery, get melee to +14 bonus or so, buy all the necessary survival feats, like keen senses/hardiness/rpois/crit.resistance/etc

As you find good protection armor and items, wear 'em. Think, 10-33 or more protection. You'll be sword and boarding, or axe and shield for most of the game. Start adding more melee points near 650', get bonus to over +20. Start removing some armor penalty items for more melee accuracy at end game, to end fights faster.

[BlueFish]

Not at 200 ft they're not.

[taptap]

I'm curious whether there is such a thing as an "easy" build even for an experienced player. It seems so common to get surrounded in a corridor by 3 orc warriors on either side at 200 ft, or something like that. There's no build that will allow you to survive that. But I haven't played the "easy" race since I won once with it so I'm not sure.

Herbs of Rage and moral effects (staff, Elbereth, trumpet, slaying weapons, cruel blow) are your friend.

[BlueFish]

I'm curious whether there is such a thing as an "easy" build even for an experienced player. It seems so common to get surrounded in a corridor by 3 orc warriors on either side at 200 ft, or something like that. There's no build that will allow you to survive that. But I haven't played the "easy" race since I won once with it so I'm not sure.

[taptap]

Another good build:

Feanor, balanced stat distribution w/ 2 STR and 4-5 DEX, 3-4 CON, 4 GRA, lots of archery, some stealth and disguise, some evasion and weaponsmith. Make 2 lb (or 2.1 lb) longbow and some arrows at the first forge. Increase stealth (vanish), archery and perception (focus and concentration and listen) as you go, evasion until sprinting only. You could remain with only weaponsmith to make arrows or increase smithing as soon as you feel comfortable to do so to make it an archer smith with more smithing. I used to do this with a shortbow at the 1st forge, but 2 STR and a longbow first works out much better for me against critical resistant or armoured enemies - you still need to be careful where to pick your fights in the start. First abilities from the archer tree would be precision, flaming arrows and crippling shot. When your perception and archery skills grow changing to a 1 lb shortbow might be a good idea even if you don't utilize 1 of your 2 STR points. Resist the temptation to fight in melee with versatility even with a good weapon - the ladder is full of dead archers that engaged in melee, better have a swap bow to tackle different enemies without burning, literally, too many arrows.

When I don't increase smithing after weaponsmith I would avoid lore-master completely because I want all those other perception abilities focus / concentration / keen senses / listen. So, if you still want lore-master without smithing you may want to do this with a Finarfin and 2/4/4/4 or 2/4/3/5.

[mrrstark]

All true. Thanks for the responses!

[taptap]

a concession to the early game rather than a starting point for a long-term build

The most important aspect of late game strength is being alive in the late game. I played dozens of characters that could have been super strong in the throne room theoretically but never survived due to some glaring weakness earlier. It is much better to give away a bit of peak strength for more survivability - early / midgame strength also allows you to recover more loot in that depth and going faster. A single good drop triggered by being strong early can fully compensate for the perceived drop in peak strength as well.