Sil: Do you like the Mewlip forgetting effect?

[half]

Some people really dislike the effect that Mewlips have when they ring their bells and you forget the map (sometimes called 'map rot'). They feel that it is frustrating, but adds nothing (or very little) to the game. Some dislike it because in theory you could avoid it by taking screenshots and referring to these later. I like it as I find it to be a flavourful minor setback (which are very useful in a permadeath game). As I said in my recent ladder post, if my character is fragile it gives me a sense of shock and horror as I realise it is now much harder to get back to the stairs. I then have to change my gameplay to secure a route to some stairs like if I fell through a false floor. Such feelings of dawning horror are hard to conjure in games and I'm loath to remove it, but if enough people want me to (i.e. if my reaction is just really atypical), then I will. I could also make it rarer or tweak it in some other way (easier Will save?).

[half]

Note that I don't promise to remove it if the reaction is negative but not decisive. I'm confident enough of my skill in game design that I think my considered view on a game mechanic is better than deciding by opinion poll, but I do want to find out if I'm a total outlier on this!

[HallucinationMushroom]

I am ambivalent. I don't dislike, or like, Mewlip amnesia. I just go with the flow. If it got removed, I'd miss it, but I don't think it's awesome or anything.

If I see a Mewlip, I will do a quick stair-check to try and keep up with where the escapes are... but this is coming from a guy who will do the same thing with violet mold position, then forget 5 seconds later, then walk right into it.

I AM memory loss effect.

[Scatha]

Mixed feelings; mildly positive overall.

[mnoqy]

I do quite like the feeling of being in unfamiliar territory with no known escape routes, as gained through false floors and crumbling staircases, but the fact that I could still have map knowledge if I recorded my game or occasionally took pictures when in danger of amnesia, completely ruins it for me.
It would be nice to have such an effect that doesn't require switching or completely regenerating levels (as with staircases/false floors) or hiding previously-known information (as with amnesia). The only thing I've managed to think of so far though is a sort of "floor-wide earthquake" closing off some escape routes and opening others (so the player would genuinely have no way of knowing the exact details of how to navigate but prominent features like rooms/vaults remain mostly recognizable), but I'm not quite satisfied with how I imagine it would work. I figure I'll throw it out in case it inspires anyone to think of something better.

[debo]

I like mewlip rot. The traps, though, are quite annoying, especially as depth increases. At 950' feet where maps can be enormous, mist traps are pretty awful.

[absolutego]

i'm a new player.
i loathe it.
marvinpa and mnoqy have covered the reasons.

[taptap]

I like mewlip rot. The traps, though, are quite annoying, especially as depth increases. At 950' feet where maps can be enormous, mist traps are pretty awful.

I once explored the same part of a map several times due to traps until I realized it is still the same floor (easy to forget when they are so large).

I vote for "like mewlip" but I have to admit I tend to take a short look at the map when I meet a mewlip. Saving the map in a screenshot didn't cross my mind though, it is like looking up monsters in the textfile to analyze their stats before engaging. You can do that, but it breaks immersion.

If minor setbacks are wanted: some monsters might lock doors or use staff of imprisonment when meeting an intruder in the same room. Need to be a somewhat strong enemy to account for something.

[HugoVirtuoso]

In my opinion, the forgetting effect is a positive thing for gameplay despite it being extremely annoying. As probably mentioned before, it forces me to pay attention more and revise tactics.

Having deep level monsters lock or even force the door get to get stuck seems like a good idea in the making and adds more to the fun.

[T-Mick]

Mixed feelings. I tend more to liking it.

[Patashu]

Not saying if I like it or not, but it would be interesting if Sil went the way of Angband and turned Amnesia from map rot into temporary disability - where Angband makes all your spells hard to cast, maybe in Sil it would pick one of your skills at random and force it to be off for a short duration? (It could even stack and disable more and more skills at once)

[Nick]

Not saying if I like it or not, but it would be interesting if Sil went the way of Angband and turned Amnesia from map rot into temporary disability - where Angband makes all your spells hard to cast, maybe in Sil it would pick one of your skills at random and force it to be off for a short duration? (It could even stack and disable more and more skills at once)

In FAangband I chose, like Sil, to keep the maprot as the only effect of amnesia (ditching the annoying all-your-stuff-is-now-inID'd effect) instead of moving to the new V effect.

I won't vote because I haven't got far enough in Sil for it to be an issue...

[Swiss]

In my win and my not-wins I've never once felt or been even remotely endangered by Mewlip amnesia, so it isn't succeeding at that goal for me. What it is succeeding at is annoying me greatly by making me try to remember what parts of the level I haven't been to so I can check them for items or dudes to kill. The part where you can just get the info back with a recording isn't helpful either... sil got me to install cygwin for termcast, true story.

I suspect it would be much less irritating in this way if you could get the map knowledge you previously had back without having to reexplore the entire thing (kill the mewlip, stay away from it for a while, whatever), but I still would prefer that the effect just not be there. I'd rather things actually try to kill me and maybe even succeed instead of focus more on irritating me, but even if nonlethal annoyance is desirable as it sometimes is, you surely can do better than this... Patashu mentions temporary disabilities, doing something like that might be good.

[evilmike]

I think the way amnesia blocks your "door-sense" is the main thing it does if you have a good memory. This has been mentioned elsewhere.

Overall I find it's just a nuisance, although I find that amnesia traps are much more annoying than mewlips. Mewlips don't really bug me that much, but amensia traps on big levels aren't fun.

My problem, though, actually isn't that amensia is annoying. It's more that the effect is too "meta" for my tastes. Taking screenshots isn't hard. At least on windows you can load up "snipping tool" and take screenshots with that. You don't even need to save them anywhere and the program is simple, so the whole process would take about 2 seconds. I don't actually do this... but it's tempting.

You might say this is cheating, but it's the same as commiting the map to memory, drawing it on paper, or just taking good notes. Notes are even supported in-game. If you were insane, you could even draw a map in ascii art using ingame notes (please, please don't try this).

Overall, that sort of possibility just bugs me. I prefer effects that debuff or harm you in some way, and need to be countered via good tactics and strategy. And that's the sort of thing that makes Sil a good game.

[Nomad]

My problem, though, actually isn't that amensia is annoying. It's more that the effect is too "meta" for my tastes.

Yeah, I think I agree with this. It creates an in-game effect - "Your memory of the level layout is lost" - that's countered by the out-of-game reality: my memory of the level layout is actually still perfectly intact. So the extent of the negative effect is governed by something completely external to the game, how good the player's memory happens to be, which seems rather counter to the spirit of roguelikes to me.

How about having amnesia temporarily disable your skills or something? Or a longer version of the temporary blackout that you get with herbs of rage?