Sil: What are the weakest abilities?

[Patashu]

Thoughts

-What if Mind over Matter didn't just slow down hunger, but also sped up hunger when gorged (maybe ultra-sped up, to the point where being gorged is very difficult)? Maybe it would still only be a for newbies skill, but it wouldn't be as big of a newbie trap.

-What if Careful shot allowed you to recover flaming arrows sometimes?

-What if Strength in Adversity also gave you some kind of protection against dying, such as 'you can't die if strictly above 10% hp, instead you go to 1 hp'? To make it possible to strategize around having the bonus status without fear of splatting hard. Or even giving a con bonus too, as suggested earlier in the topic (it would work ok, I think, as long as hp % remains the same when changing con and strength in adversity is % based, however you'd have to make sure rounding is done right - e.g. if you heal an hp and lose some strength in adversity, you'd have to not immediately go back into strength in adversity, and same for the opposite situation)

-What if Channeling (sometimes? predictably?) let you use the item for a free turn?

[taptap]

I strongly disagree with the comments on Vanish. I love it. My only winner would have been dead for sure without Vanish. The 10 points difference is huge. Yes, with high stealth they usually don't notice you, but even pacifists don't want to die every time they do notice you. And with an archer build - you actively attack monsters and make them aware of you - if you have no way to disengage that would be disastrous. Most obviously in the throne room.

If you want to improve Strength in Adversity (which I believe can be good on some builds, high CON, heavy weapon, charge - i.e. you have the spare weight to use additional str - and knockback) I would rather change the threshold of the bonus to 2/3 and 1/3 than adding a lot minor conditions, effects. Simplicity people!

Majesty: There are builds that don't want enemies to come too close - or to come close and then leave again. (Archers, maybe Polearm mastery / Opportunist?) A lot of people take it for the ascent afaik.

Throwing mastery: Did anyone try this e.g. with throwing axes when throwing weapons still had the "auto-momentum" strength bonus per 0.5lb?

[HallucinationMushroom]

I like eye for detail, but it probably made more sense when trap doors were way more common. Trap door for ironman is brutal. Also, for characters fleeing Morgoth, a bonus to doors and traps and trap doors is nice... where efd saved my life once. Situation-wise, it's hard to buy this early since five points in perception is probably enough at the beginning, but at the end of the game is when I start to consider it since buying the ability is likely cheaper than raising perception. So, position wise, it's odd. Perhaps make it a +10 bonus and put it toward the bottom of the tree?

I love strength in adversity. It's great for imagining, and it's useful. +1, then +2 to str/gra during a tough fight? Awesome. It's like, I WILL NOT DIE, RARGHH! I've had some good times with this. Suddenly getting better crit resistance and protection from the will bonus, and of course, the damage, THE DAMAGE, Gandalf!

On their own, I think these abilities are just fine... but of course they become prohibitively expensive because both the will and perception trees are just so good. I could list off several that I don't take because of cost issues, but that I think are just fine.

[debo]

If you want to improve Strength in Adversity (which I believe can be good on some builds, high CON, heavy weapon, charge - i.e. you have the spare weight to use additional str - and knockback) I would rather change the threshold of the bonus to 2/3 and 1/3 than adding a lot minor conditions, effects. Simplicity people!

I like this.

Majesty: There are builds that don't want enemies to come too close - or to come close and then leave again. (Archers, maybe Polearm mastery / Opportunist?) A lot of people take it for the ascent afaik.

So the best ability in the will tree is basically only useful to high-will archery specialists?

Throwing mastery: Did anyone try this e.g. with throwing axes when throwing weapons still had the "auto-momentum" strength bonus per 0.5lb?

Yup, I killed about 100 such characters. I think a couple of them even made it to the ladder. It was far more reliable to just take my normal melee weapons and use throwing weapons for support, but if I'm just going to use them for support, the cost isn't really justified IMO

[WaveMotion]

Throwing mastery: Did anyone try this e.g. with throwing axes when throwing weapons still had the "auto-momentum" strength bonus per 0.5lb?

I remember trying some characters who would take Throwing Mastery with Polearm Mastery and Focused Attack, and focus-throw forged 2.0lb spears. I would get some pretty large hits this way sometimes but not enough to make an improvement where it matters in the more dangerous encounters. I may give it another try.

I think a fundamental problem with polearms is that the two main paths for raising melee damage in Sil is by stacking criticals on light weapons or increasing damage sides on multiple-dice weapons. High-end polearms, being heavier weapons with 1 or 2 dice, don't go well with either strategy.

[debo]

I actually think spears work pretty well with finesse. You can't use subtlety, which stops you from getting those 8x crits we love so much, but e.g. a light great spear wielded in 2 hands really only needs a double crit to be scary (3d17? Lol)

I really want to make a high-str build that uses a light spear or great spear 2-handed for criticals, using momentum. I'd almost certainly need to use smithing to get what I want, unless I happen across Aeglos somehow

[taptap]

I think a fundamental problem with polearms is that the two main paths for raising melee damage in Sil is by stacking criticals on light weapons or increasing damage sides on multiple-dice weapons. High-end polearms, being heavier weapons with 1 or 2 dice, don't go well with either strategy.

Purely theoretical: Polearms have most damage sides on each dice of all weapons. So even when you have fewer criticals each critical should amount to more damage. Slays and brands have more effect on polearms - as several artefact polearms do. (And they have a modest benefit of higher variation in damage output being good against armour.)

1lb shortsword does 1d8 with subtlety you get these 1d8 for every 5 pts you beat the opposing evasion roll, a normal spear with 3 strength does 1d14 for every 10 pts. So spear might be better at lower skills but as soon as you have a lot of criticals shortsword is better. If you add a shield - without subtlety 1d8 / 7pts vs. 1d12 / 10pts the spear is even marginally better. Not that this says much, because nobody uses a shortsword like that.

[debo]

This is actually not a crazy idea. With ~30 total smithing you can make a pretty crazy great spear, and if Masterpiece enters the equation, you can put a venom brand on a 3.0lb great spear and with 5 or 6 strength and momentum, you are hitting for 2d20ish without any criticals at all.

Get yerself a song of sharpness and voila. It's not as insane as a really good shortsword with mega-crits, but definitely a different way to play. Also would probably be more viable from 500'-800', since you're pretty much doomed using shortswords exclusively unless you find a really good artefact one.

I am totally going to fucking do this lol

(Sorry for derailing!)

[Scatha]

This is the kind of reason that I don't think polearms are too weak. They're really versatile weapons: decent for stabbing (better than shortswords in the early game before you get Subtlety), great when you're getting a few criticals but not huge numbers, fair base damage against critical resistant enemies, plus the bonus of free attacks with the ability.

Anyhow, have fun with your artefact great spear plan!

[HugoVirtuoso]

Weakest abilities, IMO:
1) Clarity - Not necessary to get in most games, given the frequency of sources of Clairty
2) Knock Back - Used to be a big fan of this, but not anymore. Doesn't seem to have that much *umph* without Stun.
3) Controlled Retreat - I never really understood how to use this and never found it as useful as Flanking. I don't have much experience with this ability though.
4) Zone of Control - (same reason I gave for Controlled Retreat)
5) Most of the Song tree - I don't have much use for any songs other than Song of Slaying/Song of Sharpness/Unwavering Voice. I am very biased as you can tell from my Sil-Melee-geared-character-builds. But then again, everyone plays differently, sometimes *very*.

[Nick]

I don't have much use for any songs other than Song of Slaying/Song of Sharpness/Unwavering Voice. I am very biased as you can tell from my Sil-Melee-geared-character-builds

...and avatar.

[Philip]

Zone of Control is actually a really nice ability. If you stand in a doorway with pack monsters trying to encircle you you can combine it with flanking and dance around getting free hits, or just hit it in the doorway and then when it tries to leave it.

[taptap]

Weakest abilities, IMO:
2) Knock Back - Used to be a big fan of this, but not anymore. Doesn't seem to have that much *umph* without Stun.

I am playing my first really deep heavy melee char and I find knockback + charge hilarious (min. 12 bonus damage sides with great axe?), although it is bad that the opponents are already one tile away when they start to run away - never tried it in an old version, but that you can now knockback with light weapons looks wrong to me. How about taking not your strength but your effective strength bonus with the weapon into account?

[Patashu]

I am playing my first really deep heavy melee char and I find knockback + charge hilarious (min. 12 bonus damage sides with great axe?), although it is bad that the opponents are already one tile away when they start to run away

Knockback + charge + sprint?

[HugoVirtuoso]

I am playing my first really deep heavy melee char and I find knockback + charge hilarious (min. 12 bonus damage sides with great axe?), although it is bad that the opponents are already one tile away when they start to run away - never tried it in an old version, but that you can now knockback with light weapons looks wrong to me. How about taking not your strength but your effective strength bonus with the weapon into account?

I take back what I said about Knock-back...while it is great with Charge + big damage, it won't help if you you're trying to kill Morgoth.