Sil: questions and personal observations

[Scatha]

Forgive me for not being familiar with Sil's mechanics (and thus just jumping in here with an uninformed opinion -- typical American!), but would something like "max STR damage bonus = weapon weight in pounds" make some sense?

Actually that's precisely what we use.

And then you could apply a 1.5x or 2x multiplier to the bonus if you're going two-handed.

We have a 1.5x multiplier, but it's not applied to the bonus, rather to the weight required to get the bonus from each point of Strength. I think this is what bron felt was unintuitive, and I'm afraid that this particular part of the system is due to me.

The issue which it corrects for is that it may make some sense that your Strength 3 character finds a 3lb sword to be the perfect balance between heft and manoeuvrability, but it seems obvious that their ideal weight for a two-handed weapon should be heavier, because they bring more strength to bear there. We could model this by literally giving you a Strength bonus for two-handers, but to simplify calculations for the player (most of the time) that bonus is already counted in the damage dice the weapon has.

[bron]

This seems a bit harsh

Yes, well, you're right. It came out sounding a lot harsher than I intended.; sorry. I very much like the general idea that the strength bonus is capped by weapon weight, so that strong characters are given an incentive to wield heavier weapons. That's nice, and it's simple and easy to understand. The *only* part I'm having trouble with is that the bonus is un-evenly applied to 1-handed vs. 2-handed weapons. Very strong characters might find it desirable to wield a heavy bastard sword 1-handed in preference to a 2-handed weapon, since the damage output could be about the same (or even actually greater in admittedly-absurd-extreme cases). I just think that the same simple rule applied to 1-handed weapons, e.g. "you get a +1 damage sides bonus for each point of strength, capped by the weapon weight in pounds" should be applied to 2-handed weapons as well. I find it hard to believe that this would really make all that much difference in real combat situations, and would make the Strength attribute be a ittlle bit more valuable than it is now, which I think would be a good thing.

I freely admit I am no Sil expert, and I have no problem with people who understand this all better than I do saying: "well, I see your point, but you're just plain wrong."

[Fendell Orcbane]

Its been awhile...

But I remember when I was playing Sil a lot 4 months ago I was one of the few people that valued CON. For me Con keeps you in the game until you are able to get vanish and exchange. But it can also be playing style dependent. I was never much of a crafter. And yes I agree that Dex is very important...and now I feel like playing Sil again....

[Psi]

Very strong characters might find it desirable to wield a heavy bastard sword 1-handed in preference to a 2-handed weapon, since the damage output could be about the same

For example wielding Anguirel or Anglachel (5lb swords) with > 3 Str gives the same damage 1 or 2-handed, so it makes sense to dual-wield or wear a shield. I've been in that position myself.

I think you'd need to hit 7 Str and a 7lb sword (I think bastard swords can get up to 8lbs, but correct me if I'm wrong) to make 1-handed better than 2-handed, but I admit it is counter-intuitive that it is possible...

Same applies to battle-axes and war hammers - which are already heavier on average.

[Patashu]

Actually, when you think about it, the fact that having absurd strength would lead to wanting to single handedly hold previously dual handed weapons makes sense. If you can do it and swing just as mightily anyway, why not?

[half]

Yes, well, you're right. It came out sounding a lot harsher than I intended.;

That's fine -- and I am genuinely interested in the issue!

I freely admit I am no Sil expert, and I have no problem with people who understand this all better than I do saying: "well, I see your point, but you're just plain wrong."

You are certainly not "just plain wrong". The changing multipliers (1.5 for two handed use, 0.5 for throwing) help to balance things a little, and to provide a simulationist aspect, but it is not clear that they are worth the complexity.

[half]

Actually, when you think about it, the fact that having absurd strength would lead to wanting to single handedly hold previously dual handed weapons makes sense. If you can do it and swing just as mightily anyway, why not?

Yes, this is what we were thinking. People with low Strength would like to wield a Bastard Sword with two hands (in most cases), people with high Strength would like to wield it with one hand (in most cases). If your Strength is really high, then there is pretty much no value in wielding it in two hands (c.f. shortswords and longswords).

[LostTemplar]

But if your one handed strike is stronger then two handed it makes no sense.
(e.g. weight 7 and str 7 for d3/d5 weapon one handed d10, two handed d9)

[half]

There are a few oddities though:

(1) That 4 lb leans towards single handed, 4.5 to two handed, then 5.0 to single handed again...
(2) The problem that Psi mentioned of doing more damage with one-handed.

This latter is possible, but only for a self-made Bastard Sword. Naturally found ones top out at 6.7 lb (the range is from 2/3 the normal weight to 3/2 the normal weight).

For example wielding Anguirel or Anglachel (5lb swords) with > 3 Str gives the same damage 1 or 2-handed, so it makes sense to dual-wield or wear a shield.

A minor point, but at Str 4, two-handed use still does more damage. At Str 5 they become equivalent, which is probably OK for me. They are heavy swords but Str 5 is meant to be *very* strong in Sil.

[HallucinationMushroom]

I'm undertaking Scatha's no-magic challenge and have a question about dwarf masks. What is the fire resistance provided by? I've never bothered wondering why it granted rfire until now. I would assume it's a magical property, but perhaps it is based on thickness of metal, or alloy, or shape, or...

Also, while I'm here, would the listen ability allow me to detect creatures that exude darkness on a square right next to me if I had perception high enough?
I won't be able to combat dark with light, nor resist fire permanently, and those two things jump out at me as the most difficult pitfalls.

I'm allowing potions since I'm going to stretch and say that potions are based on alchemy and not magic, though the potions are likely 3 parts magic to 1 part science. Herbs I'm allowing since they ought to be all natural.

Scatha mentioned this on his Curufin character...

No Magic:
- Never use any {special} items, artefacts, jewellery, feanorian lamps, lesser jewels, or shadow cloaks.
- Don't use Staves or Trumpets
- No Songs
- Only Weaponsmith, Armoursmith and Artistry allowed in Smithing
- No Lore Master, Flaming Arrows, or Inner Light

[debo]

Also, while I'm here, would the listen ability allow me to detect creatures that exude darkness on a square right next to me if I had perception high enough?

Yes, although you might have to wait a few turns to see if it kicks in. With high-stealth characters, I prefer to stand at a distance and shoot into the darkness if I really want to know that something is there. If it gives chase, I duck into a hallway and vanish.

[HallucinationMushroom]

Ah, okay thanks Debo. I went to the encyclopedia of Arda and it said that the heavy metal visors gave the dwarf mask their fire resistance. So, I guess it's game on with the dwarf mask? I had assumed it was magical, but that leads me to believe it's like a welders mask.

[Scatha]

The intention was definitely that they're not magical (at least roughly speaking ... it is hard to draw a definite line with things in Tolkien's writings between the magical and the nonmagical).

For the Naugrim withstood fire more hardily than either Elves or Me, and it was their custom moreover to wear great masks in battle hideous to look at; and those stood them in good stead against the dragons.

[HallucinationMushroom]

Thanks! Hey, you know what's not fun... not picking up phat lewt. Haha!