Future of Angband development

[Nomad]

What about teleport traps? Those can be quite lethal, even if you have zero-fail escapes.

Phase door effect instead of long-distance teleport?

[ghengiz]

Phase door effect instead of long-distance teleport?

it seems a reasonable compromise

[Nick]

All trap detection is passive. No search command. You get one chance to notice a trap based on your current search/score. Once you've seen the square you get no more chances even if you have better search. The chance can be relatively high or not depending on whether you want traps to be mostly known or mostly unknown. That obviously has an impact on how lethal they should be also.

Neat. I also like Derakon's idea of more "trappy terrain" (standard disclaimer - FA already has some of this), and having some traps already visible (in vaults, for example).

Note too that removing the search command would require a new way of handling secret doors - or else you could keep the search command, and just have it only apply to doors.

[buzzkill]

re searching: I'm all for passive LoS trap detection. I don't don't see a problem with at the same time having a search command, so long as it gives diminishing returns, so repeatedly spamming the 's' button is counter-productive in general use, but might be worthwhile if you really, really, really know that there is a trap on the space and have no alternative (tunneling, phase, etc).

My model for the diminishing returns would be something like a half-life initially based on searching ability. Once the probability (of finding a trap) drops below 5%, then no further searching is possible, and a message given "You've searched every nook and cranny, if there's a trap here you're not capable of finding it". Great searchers could search extensively before exhausting all possibilities. Poor searchers will run out of places to look quickly.

I also be careful not to make traps inconsequential. Traps that kill you are bad (but such are the consequences of poor searching). Traps than almost kill you are good. If traps become overly-weak to avoid "dicking over" the player, then we're no better off than we are now (and the traps are already lame).

[Mikko Lehtinen]

All trap detection is passive. No search command. You get one chance to notice a trap based on your current search/score. Once you've seen the square you get no more chances even if you have better search.

That's the FayAngband method.

I also tied Wisdom to Perception to make it more relevant to non-spellcasters.

[LostTemplar]

Btw what is so bad in search command, why not just remove magical detection, but still have search ?

[Mikko Lehtinen]

Btw what is so bad in search command, why not just remove magical detection, but still have search ?

We don't want to force players to search 20 times after each step.

Repeated searching is cool for secret doors, though.

[d_m]

Note too that removing the search command would require a new way of handling secret doors - or else you could keep the search command, and just have it only apply to doors.

I have never thought the current secret doors work very well.

A lot of people I've watched learn to play Angband (who aren't veterans) never learn that secret doors exist. Once you've played a lot (or been a dev) you get a feel for which dead-end tunnels or weird intersections probably have a secret door, and you just hang out there hammering "s" until you find it. But I have watched people "miss out" on half a level because they didn't manually search in the exact right spot.

I would handle secret door detection using the same LOS rules, with the caveat that when you're directly adjacent to a secret door you automatically detect it. This means secret doors will never "shut down" a player who walks by them, but are not revealed via e.g. magic mapping.

There are other ways to handle it too. But I think that eliminating the need for a search command is important. It reduces the number of commands/concepts new players need to learn, it removes a repetitive mechanic, and makes discovering secret doors a bit more of a surprise.

[LostTemplar]

We don't want to force players to search 20 times after each step.

I doubt you can anyway You greatly overrate traps.

BTW in my variant there is meaningfull choice to play cowardly (search for traps, rest after fights) and die by starvation, or to play fast and die in combat.

[Mikko Lehtinen]

I doubt you can anyway You greatly overrate traps.

People wouldn't search for 20 times, of course. But they would not be playing optimally then, and that bugs some people (like me).

There's another benefit for only having one try: it makes Perception skill more important, and gives classes/races more variety.

BTW in my variant there is meaningfull choice to play cowardly (search for traps, rest after fights) and die by starvation, or to play fast and die in combat.

Having a tight food clock (and eliminating Satisfy Hunger) of course makes it a different situation! That would play a bit like the granddaddy Rogue.

[EpicMan]

I doubt you can anyway You greatly overrate traps.

BTW in my variant there is meaningfull choice to play cowardly (search for traps, rest after fights) and die by starvation, or to play fast and die in combat.

Which variant is that, Lost Templar?

FWIW, I like the idea of one-shot, passive trap detection, and the variation for spotting secret doors.

You could give elves and half elves high racial bonuses to perception/searching skill to give them something more than 'the weak race for casters' place they hold now. Elves might have other issues, but they nearly always spot / evade traps.

You could even make them immune to traps, 'elves walk lightly on the earth' and all that. I don't know if that would make them a viable race choice but at least they would be different.

What I would really like to see is monsters affected by traps, too. So some you would spot when a monster in LOS suddenly gets blasted by fire or falls through a hole in the floor.

[Derakon]

Making monsters be affected by traps was pretty easy about 12-15 years ago when I implemented it on a lark. You do need to remember to make them immune to vault traps though, to avoid excessive silliness. But that's also easy. The main thing is deciding how much damage the monster should take from the trap, since player and monster HP scales are so different. And of course, monsters don't have STR or DEX to drain via dart traps, nor are they bothered by summoning traps.

[LostTemplar]

Which variant is that, Lost Templar?

Yggband, based on FA 1.16. Not finished yet, and very broken. github link

Btw perception is still important, it is definitely not worth searching every turn, but if, e.g. some monster cast create traps, then it is worth searching, or in a vault maybe.

[Mikko Lehtinen]

I have never thought the current secret doors work very well.

A lot of people I've watched learn to play Angband (who aren't veterans) never learn that secret doors exist. Once you've played a lot (or been a dev) you get a feel for which dead-end tunnels or weird intersections probably have a secret door, and you just hang out there hammering "s" until you find it. But I have watched people "miss out" on half a level because they didn't manually search in the exact right spot.

I've had more than one "bug reports" for Fay because people couldn't find any stairs on the level, and the stairs were hidden behind secret doors. This confirms this is a real issue. The only reason this doesn't happen in Vanilla is because stairs are so common.

Repeated searching for secret doors (or other stuff) is kinda cool in variants with "special walls" and shelves, like Un. That's the only reason I'm planning to keep the mechanic in Fay. Inside rooms, secret doors will only exist in special walls or shelves. I use repeated searching in places where I want the player to eventually discover something, like secret doors. In truth, having to search repeatably is more for flavour than anything else.

But I've also added "interesting squares" that work more like traps -- you only get one Perception roll to find something interesting. Perception skill should matter!

[bio_hazard]

Making monsters be affected by traps was pretty easy about 12-15 years ago when I implemented it on a lark. You do need to remember to make them immune to vault traps though, to avoid excessive silliness. But that's also easy. The main thing is deciding how much damage the monster should take from the trap, since player and monster HP scales are so different. And of course, monsters don't have STR or DEX to drain via dart traps, nor are they bothered by summoning traps.

I think having a weak monster run to and activate a known summoning trap would be a fantastic mechanic. I guess similarly, a monster running away and jumping on a teleport trap to get away would be cool too.