Vanilla Patch - changing Angels to Ainu/Maia

[Timo Pietilä]

should this one be replaced with something else as well, when we're in the process of purging earth-religious creatures from Angband

Nearly all (unique) creatures in Angband that are not Tolkien creation are from some religion, starting from Titans. What we are now doing is just removing major religion creatures. IIRC removal of Tiamat was because it is religious creature. Same with Cerberus.

Angels are just entire race that is religious so that doesn't feel like they should be there. BTW if we remove angels we should remove Pit Fiends as well. They don't feel "right" anyway in set where greater Balrogs should be the most powerul beings.

I wouldn't mind if we remove Knight Templars completely. They are after all quite boring creatures. Just boost Paladins a bit to compensate the loss of one step up creature of same set.

[fizzix]

should this one be replaced with something else as well, when we're in the process of purging earth-religious creatures from Angband:


N:436:Knight Templar
Terson
D:It seems that the more devout the person, the more likely they are to cross
D: the boundary between piety and sanctimoniousness. And such is the case with
D: the Order of the Knights Templar; they are among the most pious and powerful
D: of the religious knightly orders, but noted for their intolerance. Thus it
D: is Morgoth's will that is unwittingly done, as the forces of good are set
D: against each other.

probably should be changed before 3.4 for thematic consistency. Some human who is a devotee of the maia.

[Shockbolt]

should this one be replaced with something else as well, when we're in the process of purging earth-religious creatures from Angband:


N:436:Knight Templar
Terson
D:It seems that the more devout the person, the more likely they are to cross
D: the boundary between piety and sanctimoniousness. And such is the case with
D: the Order of the Knights Templar; they are among the most pious and powerful
D: of the religious knightly orders, but noted for their intolerance. Thus it
D: is Morgoth's will that is unwittingly done, as the forces of good are set
D: against each other.

[nppangband]

I did mean it as telling what has been done, and how that is an error. Blue Wizards is not general name of Ainur, it means two wizards that are part of Istari and those combined is just five unique beings, not a general name of a species/race. You can't use something that means known monsters as general monster names, that's like using ringwraiths as just one type of wraith in the game, no matter how many you kill, there will be others.

I took a little bit of artistic license there. The two blue wizards went east, and were never heard from again. Even Tolkien stated he did not know what thier fate was. I just assumed they started their own order and trained many others in thier ways.

It isn't without precedent. Tolkien once wrote that only 7 balrogs exist, but Angband has unique balrogs and a generic monster races.

ALso, I noted when I posted the patch that the list wasn't perfect. I am sure if you ask 100 Angband players, you will get 100 different lists of maiar/ainur that should go in the game. The devteam requested when I did the patch that I try to keep things aligned so the Angel tiles, while not perfect, at least be usable and make reasonable sense for the new monsters. That's why the changes are the way they are.

In NPP that list has since been replaced with 40+ ainur/maiar monster raced in NPP. By the way, the Encylopedia of Adra is now pretty well organized for research of they kind now. I think I will add a couple more to NPP sometime soon.

http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/raceainu.html

[Timo Pietilä]

So by this post, you're trying to explain what the possible character replacements can be, and then you're voting against doing so?

It's a tad confusing.

I did mean it as telling what has been done, and how that is an error. Blue Wizards is not general name of Ainur, it means two wizards that are part of Istari and those combined is just five unique beings, not a general name of a species/race. You can't use something that means known monsters as general monster names, that's like using ringwraiths as just one type of wraith in the game, no matter how many you kill, there will be others.

I would rather not fight either of the wizards or what's considered "good" characters, but as you say, it's not an easy task to come up with "evil" known Maia, thus my suggestions as Maia was already pointed out as their replacements. If no good substitutes can be found, why don't we simply create "evil" Maia characters that would suit each replacement.

I agree with that. It's not that difficult to figure out descriptions, I have more problem figuring out names. Maiar that are not directly under Morgoth control or working for him, but are not "good" either are not that unheard of, think Saruman and Ungoliant.

[Shockbolt]

So by this post, you're trying to explain what the possible character replacements can be, and then you're voting against doing so?

It's a tad confusing.

I would rather not fight either of the wizards or what's considered "good" characters, but as you say, it's not an easy task to come up with "evil" known Maia, thus my suggestions as Maia was already pointed out as their replacements. If no good substitutes can be found, why don't we simply create "evil" Maia characters that would suit each replacement.

Blue wizards should be two uniques: Alatar and Pallando, Istar is just other name for Wizards (singular, Istari plural), so that counts in Radagast, Gandalf and Saruman too.

I would prefer that those two get something else as description and names.

[Timo Pietilä]

I suggest the following then:

^# 289: Angel --> Lesser Maia --> Alatar
# 311: Archangel --> Maia --> Goldberry
# 350: Cherub --> Greater Maia -->Tom Bombadil
# 415: Seraph --> Blue wizard --> Gandalf
# 455: Archon --> Istar --> Pallando

You would be replacing normal monsters with uniques. That doesn't work.

Also I would refuse to fight any of those, especially Goldberry and Tom.

There are enough maiar types to choose, just named ones are difficult to find. Based on Silmarillion and other books each Valar had his/her own "type" of maiar that possessed similar skillsets, just less powerful. Sauron was Aules folk Gandalf perhaps Manwe or Orome, then there were ainur that had more primordial force connections: earth, air, fire and water. Balrogs are fire-spirits gone bad, Arien is basically a good balrog.

Azriel could be changed to Ainur of Mandos (nobody talks about them, but they must have existed). Gabriel could be associated with Manwe or Varda (as a most powerful one), Uriel is a bit difficult one, I would rather have it being something else than fire-based non-balrog (it is rather boring compared to rest of the angels in current vanilla). Orome (hunter) or maybe Yavanna (earth, things that grow on earth) folk. Just making up names for those is a tough task.

Archon and Seraph could be Manwe and Mandos folk Cherub and Archangel Oromes and Aules folk, leave "Angel" as "lesser maiar".

[Shockbolt]

Saruman is already in Angband, at dungeon LVL 60 :

N:514:Saruman of Many Colours
Terson
D:Originally known as the White, Saruman fell prey to Sauron's wiles. He seeks
D: to emulate him and breeds orcs and trolls to fight for him. He searches
D: forever for the One Ring, to become a mighty Sorcerer-King of the world.

I suggest the following then:

^# 289: Angel --> Lesser Maia --> Alatar
# 311: Archangel --> Maia --> Goldberry
# 350: Cherub --> Greater Maia -->Tom Bombadil
# 415: Seraph --> Blue wizard --> Gandalf
# 455: Archon --> Istar --> Pallando
# 509: Uriel, Angel of Fire --> Arien, Maia of the Sun
# 510: Azriel, Angel of Death --> Osse, Herald of Ulmo
$ 513: Gabriel, the Messenger --> Radagast the Brown

Looking up my Lord of Middle-earth by ICE, the wizards are the ones with the lowest level compared to Tom Bombadil at lvl 360, Goldberry lvl 150, Ossë lvl 325, Alatar lvl 40, Gandalf grey lvl 35, Pallando lvl 40, Radagast lvl 40, Saruman lvl 50, Arien lvl 325. Of course the lvls only refer to their strenghts in the MERP/Rolemaster setting, but it goes to show their powers compared against eachother.

Blue wizards should be two uniques: Alatar and Pallando, Istar is just other name for Wizards (singular, Istari plural), so that counts in Radagast, Gandalf and Saruman too.

I would prefer that those two get something else as description and names.

[Timo Pietilä]

# 415: Seraph --> Blue wizard
# 455: Archon --> Istar

Blue wizards should be two uniques: Alatar and Pallando, Istar is just other name for Wizards (singular, Istari plural), so that counts in Radagast, Gandalf and Saruman too.

I would prefer that those two get something else as description and names.

[Shockbolt]

Awesome, thanks, I'll be adding those to my todo paint list.

@Shockbolt - correct. The devteam didn't want to add any additional monsters because they wanted the tilesets to remain complete. The patch went into Angband with no modifications, so here is the complete changelist:

# 289: Angel --> Lesser Maia
# 311: Archangel --> Maia
# 350: Cherub --> Greater Maia
# 415: Seraph --> Blue wizard
# 455: Archon --> Istar
# 509: Uriel, Angel of Fire --> Arien, Maia of the Sun
# 510: Azriel, Angel of Death --> Osse, Herald of Ulmo
$ 513: Gabriel, the Messenger --> Radagast the Brown

By the way, your artwork is amazing (the phrase "tiles" simply does not do them justice). I have played strictly with ASCII for over 20 years now, but you make we want to try graphics.

[nppangband]

@Shockbolt - correct. The devteam didn't want to add any additional monsters because they wanted the tilesets to remain complete. The patch went into Angband with no modifications, so here is the complete changelist:

# 289: Angel --> Lesser Maia
# 311: Archangel --> Maia
# 350: Cherub --> Greater Maia
# 415: Seraph --> Blue wizard
# 455: Archon --> Istar
# 509: Uriel, Angel of Fire --> Arien, Maia of the Sun
# 510: Azriel, Angel of Death --> Osse, Herald of Ulmo
$ 513: Gabriel, the Messenger --> Radagast the Brown

By the way, your artwork is amazing (the phrase "tiles" simply does not do them justice). I have played strictly with ASCII for over 20 years now, but you make we want to try graphics.

[Shockbolt]

are these the only ones replaced or are there more changes?

N:289:Angel
T:angel
D:Who knows why you are now facing an angel as an enemy? Is it a punishment
D: from your own god for your sins, or a test of your mettle, or has this angel
D: been sent by another god on behalf of someone who wishes to claim the glory
D: for his own god? Perhaps you will never know: but it is here, and you must
D: fight it.

N:311:Archangel
T:angel
D:An angel protected by an aura of holiness. Its muscular form looks extremely
D: powerful next to your own frail body.

N:350:Cherub
T:angel
D:It is an angel moving very quickly, wielding a holy war hammer and casting a
D: volley of powerful spells in your direction.

N:415:Seraph
T:angel
D:It is an angel, fast and strong. You are stunned by its extreme holiness and
D: try to resist all desires to obey it.

N:455:Archon
T:angel
D:Never a more heavenly being have you seen. The very holiness of its presence
D: makes you deeply respect it. Few creatures can match the powers of an
D: Archon; fewer still live to tell the tale after attacking one.

N:509:Uriel, Angel of Fire
T:angel
D:A creature of godly appearance, you dare not challenge Uriel's supremacy.
D: Those who stood against him before are but a memory, cremated by his mastery
D: of elemental fire.

N:510:Azriel, Angel of Death
T:angel
D:Azriel commands awesome power, his visage holy enough to shrivel your soul.
D: You shriek with disbelief as his mastery of death draws you to your grave.
D: It is truly beyond all but the mightiest of warriors to stand against him and
D: live.

N:513:Gabriel, the Messenger
T:angel
D:Commanding a legion of angels, Gabriel will destroy you for your sins. He
D: will crush you like the pitiful insignificant being he sees you to be. Your
D: very soul will be taken into judgement by his supreme authority as he
D: cleanses the world of evil.

[nppangband]

Most excellent! When will an updated monster.txt be available, so that I can paint the tiles for those as well?

It should be available here:

https://github.com/angband/angband/blob/staging/lib/edit/monster.txt

[Shockbolt]

Most excellent! When will an updated monster.txt be available, so that I can paint the tiles for those as well?

[Tobias]

I am a bit annoyed about this change, because the Angel's description was one of the coolest pieces of flavor in the game in my opinion.
It would be nice if it could be preserved someway.

But I agree, that the new way makes more sense thematically.