Paralysis and free action

[Magnate]

I have been thinking about that shield-spell for some time. To me it feels kind weak spell for its cost. How about instead of increasing AC with that spell it works as dampening field around caster so that it removes certain % of all physical damage mage gets. Kind of resistance against everything, just less powerful than resistances to basic4. Maybe up to 25% at clvl 50. (% based on clvl/2?). That would make it quite powerful, and IMO a lot more "in theme" for mage (it is protection against all, not just melee, IE. it is not boost for mage acting like a warrior).

BTW. 2.9.3 combination of Celeborn, Aman shadow cloak [6,+20] {poison}, Thorin, Dor-Lomin, Cambeleg, Metal Shot BoS [6,+10] IOW typical endgame gear gives 171 AC (well, Dor-Lomin is not typical in 3.3, you probably have lower AC there using one of the high-end crowns, but in 2.9.3 it was typical).

Same with 3.3 gears: 205 AC.

Difference is only 34 points. I think that should give you same chance of hitting than it does in 2.9.3. It feels now that difference is much higher. It feels wrong that I can kill things like Pit Fiends, Greater Balrogs, high-end Angels, all dragons without too much trouble, but I need to avoid Greater Titans, horned reapers and have difficulty against unique giants.

Thank you for the analysis - it's good that the endgame AC difference isn't actually as big as some have claimed. It is absolutely the intention that being hit should be no more likely than it was in 2.9.3 - as I said in my previous post, I accept the charge of overcompensation. I'll make sure this is rebalanced for 3.3.1

[Timo Pietilä]

I think the whole idea of changing the coordinate system of AC values in a way that led to changing the monsters to have a significantly higher percentage chance of hitting the player regardless of AC was a big step in the wrong direction.

That said, if the main problem really is that titans hit too hard, there is no point in reverting anything. Just reduce titan melee damage and/or speed. Or make them 20 levels deeper [and native to pits 20 levels deeper] where I'd say they belong.

I think the game is too stilted towards worrying about ranged attacks in comparison to melee. I am happy with 3.0 melee even after removing the out-of-place damage reduction from AC. But then, I rarely melee titans, so I do not know if these remarks would apply to them.

I said Titans, but I did mean every hard-hitting thing (with Greater Titan that is just most visible problem).

I can avoid anything, in fact I now avoid entire levels with boring fights (like Greater titans). But avoiding things is not fun. It also doesn't feel right that I'm almost ready to deal with Morgoth (lacking sufficient healing basically), and I'm still avoiding Greater Titans. Those things should be pushovers by now.

[Timo Pietilä]

Or simply adjust it. It is true that the ACs of over 300 to which I was referring all included the Shield spell IIRC.

I have been thinking about that shield-spell for some time. To me it feels kind weak spell for its cost. How about instead of increasing AC with that spell it works as dampening field around caster so that it removes certain % of all physical damage mage gets. Kind of resistance against everything, just less powerful than resistances to basic4. Maybe up to 25% at clvl 50. (% based on clvl/2?). That would make it quite powerful, and IMO a lot more "in theme" for mage (it is protection against all, not just melee, IE. it is not boost for mage acting like a warrior).

BTW. 2.9.3 combination of Celeborn, Aman shadow cloak [6,+20] {poison}, Thorin, Dor-Lomin, Cambeleg, Metal Shot BoS [6,+10] IOW typical endgame gear gives 171 AC (well, Dor-Lomin is not typical in 3.3, you probably have lower AC there using one of the high-end crowns, but in 2.9.3 it was typical).

Same with 3.3 gears: 205 AC.

Difference is only 34 points. I think that should give you same chance of hitting than it does in 2.9.3. It feels now that difference is much higher. It feels wrong that I can kill things like Pit Fiends, Greater Balrogs, high-end Angels, all dragons without too much trouble, but I need to avoid Greater Titans, horned reapers and have difficulty against unique giants.

[Narvius]

Well, mages should get innate resistance to it at lvl 30, then.

[Max Stats]

A status ailment that prevented casting spells could be interesting, to go with the one (fear) that prevents melee.

Silenced, from AD&D.

[Derakon]

Confusion, blindness, and stunning all also impact melee significantly; they're basically generalized debuffs. I'm thinking of something that casting-heavy classes would want to get protection from at about the time that melee-heavy classes really want to get protection from fear. It'd add another thing to guard against, introducing more tradeoffs to the equipment puzzle.

[Napsterbater]

A status ailment that prevented casting spells could be interesting, to go with the one (fear) that prevents melee.

We've already got confusion and blindness, and I think stunning jacks up failure rates. How many do we need?

[Derakon]

A status ailment that prevented casting spells could be interesting, to go with the one (fear) that prevents melee.

As for preventing everything but movement, that sounds like what happens when you get stunned -- your damage and your ability to do anything with a failure rate both plummet.

[buzzkill]

Like upper and lower body paralysis?

I'd much rather see this applied to speed that paralysis, simply because it doesn't make any sense for paralysis.

Oh no, I'm paralyzed. Oh, wait, no, my legs still work just fine. It seems very odd that I can't speak or use my arms, yet I still have a tight grip on my weapon. Perhaps if I pirouette quickly enough I can land a blow. Damn, the spinning made my torch go out, now I can't see, and I'm also dizzy. I'm confused. I miss the old-style paralysis, I could be dead by now.

[Max Stats]

What if paralysis were split into two effects: one that prevented you from moving, and one that prevented you from acting?

Like upper and lower body paralysis?

[PowerDiver]

Problem is that it is now a lot harder to melee Greater Titan than it was in 2.9.

I think the whole idea of changing the coordinate system of AC values in a way that led to changing the monsters to have a significantly higher percentage chance of hitting the player regardless of AC was a big step in the wrong direction.

That said, if the main problem really is that titans hit too hard, there is no point in reverting anything. Just reduce titan melee damage and/or speed. Or make them 20 levels deeper [and native to pits 20 levels deeper] where I'd say they belong.

I think the game is too stilted towards worrying about ranged attacks in comparison to melee. I am happy with 3.0 melee even after removing the out-of-place damage reduction from AC. But then, I rarely melee titans, so I do not know if these remarks would apply to them.

[fizzix]

Problem is that it is now a lot harder to melee Greater Titan than it was in 2.9. Overcompensation. Also, preventing melee against hard-hitters (unless you have absolutely insane, practically unobtainable AC) makes game just less fun. Game is supposed to be fun.

greater titans are the hardest hitting (non-unique) monsters in the game. I don't understand why you think they should be melee-able for all but the most powerful characters. Even if titans represented a monster that you didn't ever allow to melee you, that's fine. A player has many ranged weapons at his disposal, including the reasonably powerful drain life and annihilation. These work against titans.

I played 2 games with standarts (both by accident) and I noticed that monsters were doing more damage, but it felt like they were doing the correct amount. I don't think the fact that I was unable to easily tackle every monster in the dungeon made the game less fun. It was just as much fun. I don't think I had AC over 200 for one of those games, but that meant that I was doing more ranged attacks and less melee.

[Derakon]

My comments about the nerf were based on what I've read on the forums, not on any actual playtesting. My most recent experience with lacking FA was during the time when AC was more powerful; during that time I lost two characters to melee paralyzers. Both were playing basically as fighters at that stage -- too stupid to cast spells usefully so I was perfectly happy to toss them into the heaviest armor I could find.

[Magnate]

If that is the source of the problem of too high AC, then solution is simple: remove shield spell.

Or simply adjust it. It is true that the ACs of over 300 to which I was referring all included the Shield spell IIRC. So we're talking about 250 from gear, which is achievable without randarts - don't forget you don't have to be wearing all artifacts - a decent cloak of Aman can have more AC than artifact cloaks.

It's true that the change was based on a small sample of games (another example of me overreacting to criticism from Eddie I'm afraid), and I'm happy to accept the charge of overcompensation.

My suggestion is that we playtest Jens's second set of changes for 3.4, and look to overhaul AC completely in 3.5.

[Timo Pietilä]

Also remember that some classes can cast shield. My recent Rogue winner used Shield a ton to get +50AC which helped a LOT against some of the hard-hitting uniques.

If that is the source of the problem of too high AC, then solution is simple: remove shield spell.